Buffaloes save Force Z, now what? (1 Viewer)

[southjn1982]

Phillips would be the leader as he also outranked the other candidates Dorman was only a Vice Admiral (Nato rank OF-7) while Phillips was a full Admiral (Nato Rank OF-9) and although Hart was also a full admiral in the pre war meetings Phillips was generally considered to be Harts superior as he was CnC China Station and thus had a larger command with more potential units at his disposal. If Phillips had been still alive it is almost certain he would have been made head of ABDACOM's naval forces while I'm sure some sections of the US would have wanted Hart as the commander, however since the RN at that point would be providing the majority of the strike power (i.e the Capital ships) Phillips would have been made CNC with Hart being a senior sub commander along with Helfrich. Doorman was not part of the original ABDACOM command structure and only took over the surface fleet after Hart was recalled in mid February 1942. Doorman was also not even the most senior Dutch Commander of Naval forces as Helfrich outranked him as Helfrich was also an OF-9 along with Phillips and Hart (Hart later got promoted to OF-10) however Helfrich was doing such a great job with the subs no-one wanted to move him as in early 1942 the Dutch Submarine force were arguably the only effective weapon the allies had)

 

[Admiral Beez]

Phillips would be the leader as he also outranked the other candidates Dorman was only a Vice Admiral (Nato rank OF-7) while Phillips was a full Admiral (Nato Rank OF-9)

Good points. I was mistaken as I thought Phillips was only an Acting Vice Admiral, with his permanent rank of Rear Admiral. When was Phillips promoted to full Admiral?

 

[EwenS]

Phillips was promoted to Acting Admiral on his appointment as CinC Eastern Fleet on 21 Oct 1941, 3 days before he raised his flag on PoW and sailed for the Far East. Details of his career here.

Royal Navy (RN) Officers 1939-1945 -- P

 

[southjn1982]

Phillips was promoted to Acting Admiral on his appointment as CinC Eastern Fleet on 21 Oct 1941, 3 days before he raised his flag on PoW and sailed for the Far East. Details of his career here.

Royal Navy (RN) Officers 1939-1945 -- P

Although a brevet promotion and only "Acting" an Acting admiral is treated as if they are a full Admiral and he almost certainly would have been made full Admiral if he was still alive in January/February to act as theatre naval commander. The only difference is the pay although when they do get made full admiral permanently they usually get the pay rise backdated to the date they became an Acting Admiral.

 

[Admiral Beez]

If Phillips had been still alive it is almost certain he would have been made head of ABDACOM's naval forces while I'm sure some sections of the US would have wanted Hart as the commander, however since the RN at that point would be providing the majority of the strike power (i.e the Capital ships) Phillips would have been made CNC with Hart being a senior sub commander along with Helfrich.

Do we think Phillips as CNC ABA (not sure about the D) would risk sending his capital ships into Java Sea in Feb 1942? Singapore has already surrendered and much of the DEI is already under Japanese occupation. The US might be demanding that Force Z (likely with HMS Indomitable, and maybe Hermes) be focused on relieving the Philippines. The Brits never have much love for the Dutch anyway.

 

[southjn1982]

Do we think Phillips as CNC ABA (not sure about the D) would risk sending his capital ships into Java Sea in Feb 1942? Singapore has already surrendered and much of the DEI is already under Japanese occupation. The US might be demanding that Force Z (likely with HMS Indomitable, and maybe Hermes) be focused on relieving the Philippines. The Brits never have much love for the Dutch anyway.

Doubtful as UK, Dutch and Australian interests lay in the fight for DEI and maintaining as much of the Malay Barrier as possible especially as the DEI was a major source of oil and their natural resources and the Phillipines were not seen as that important.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Phillips risked his two ships in Dec, I have no doubt that he'd risk a larger force as well.

 

[southjn1982]

Phillips risked his two ships in Dec, I have no doubt that he'd risk a larger force as well.

He would risk ships but not for the Phillipines

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

He would risk ships but not for the Phillipines

The fighting in Java Sea was in part to protect the approaches to Australia. He would certainly do that, or Curtin would have an even-bigger shitfit.

 

[southjn1982]

But that would be more about protecting DEI not the Philippines the original point I was disputing was the idea of the Americans forcing ABDACOM to sail North to pull Rescue MacArthur in some ABDACOM version of some of the Pre-War US Planning that revolved around the idea of the US holding out at Corregidor until the USN turn up. Phillips would not do that he would leave the US Forces to there fate and concentrate on the DEI. "Do we think Phillips as CNC ABA (not sure about the D) would risk sending his capital ships into Java Sea in Feb 1942? Singapore has already surrendered and much of the DEI is already under Japanese occupation. The US might be demanding that Force Z (likely with HMS Indomitable, and maybe Hermes) be focused on relieving the Philippines. The Brits never have much love for the Dutch anyway." I completely disagree with Beez's point here as the DEI were of a major strategic importance for the UK as well as the Dutch and the UK and the Dutch had been partners in exploiting the area for Oil etc for half a century by this point Shell is an Anglo Dutch concern. The Idea of the US forcing the RN to concentrate on the Philippines and not the DEI is ludicrous as the Philippines is of ZERO strategic value for the British while the DEI is massively important and even more so with the loss of the Malayan peninsular and Singapore.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

But that would be more about protecting DEI not the Philippines the original point I was disputing was the idea of the Americans forcing ABDACOM to sail North to pull Rescue MacArthur in some ABDACOM version of some of the Pre-War US Planning that revolved around the idea of the US holding out at Corregidor until the USN turn up. Phillips would not do that he would leave the US Forces to there fate and concentrate on the DEI. "Do we think Phillips as CNC ABA (not sure about the D) would risk sending his capital ships into Java Sea in Feb 1942? Singapore has already surrendered and much of the DEI is already under Japanese occupation. The US might be demanding that Force Z (likely with HMS Indomitable, and maybe Hermes) be focused on relieving the Philippines. The Brits never have much love for the Dutch anyway." I completely disagree with Beez's point here as the DEI were of a major strategic importance for the UK as well as the Dutch and the UK and the Dutch had been partners in exploiting the area for Oil etc for half a century by this point Shell is an Anglo Dutch concern. The Idea of the US forcing the RN to concentrate on the Philippines and not the DEI is ludicrous as the Philippines is of ZERO strategic value for the British while the DEI is massively important and even more so with the loss of the Malayan peninsular and Singapore.

I said nothing about the Philippines whatsoever. I answered a question about whether or not Phillips would have fought the Java Sea battle. I believe he would have had to, due to the threat such a Japanese advance would -- and eventually did -- pose to Australia.

Not even Hart would have deployed ABDACOM to defend the Philippines, because it's an operational dead-end at this point: Japanese air supremacy would endanger the ships, and in no way could they halt the Japanese Army's advance except perhaps the eastern shore of the Lingayen gulf, when the decisive stroke was headed the other direction towards Manila.

America might "demand" ABDACOM do this or that, but Hart himself would have pointed out the futility of throwing the fleet away in PI, and agreed to the defense of NEI. After all, that's exactly what he did historically. Adding two battlewagons to the force is not going to change the strategic calculus.

So you seem to be taking me to task when I'm actually agreeing with you. I don't get people sometimes.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I completely disagree with Beez's point here as the DEI were of a major strategic importance for the UK as well as the Dutch

Yes, but the DEI were already lost. A victory at Java Sea on Feb 27, 1942 would not have saved Sumatra. The Japanese army landed on Sumatra on Feb 14th, with the British and Dutch beginning evacuation of their air force and naval assets from the island the very next day. Besides Sumatra, the near entirety of the DEI was under Japanese control by the time Java Sea took place, with the IJA landing across DEI throughout January 1942, with just New Guinea waiting to be taken in April 1942. See this map below showing the dates of IJA landings. Sumatra is toast.

The fighting in Java Sea was in part to protect the approaches to Australia. He would certainly do that, or Curtin would have an even-bigger shitfit.

This is where Force Z needs to focus. And hopefully Phillips now have HMS Indomitable and Hermes along with the cruisers HMS Exeter and HMAS Perth and destroyers (otherwise from Java Sea) with him to guard Australia's approaches. Sommerville can head to Ceylon as per history (minus Indomitable and Hermes) to guard Indian Ocean and the approaches to Suez.

Thinking on old ships. What use can Phillips make of Hermes? At Coral Sea in May any flattop may be welcome. And HMS Repulse poses issues in that she has very limited AA armament and short endurance. Perhaps neither of these ships have any business in a Pacific naval war where endurance and naval aviation is key, and should go home. Swap out Repulse for her modernized sister Renown or the newly commissioned HMS Duke of York.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yes, but they were already lost. A victory at Java Sea on Feb 27, 1942 would not have saved Sumatra. The Japanese army landed on Sumatra on Feb 14th, with the British and Dutch beginning evacuation of their air force and naval assets from the island the very next day. Besides Sumatra, the near entirety of the DEI was under Japanese control by the time Java Sea took place, with the IJA landing across DEI throughout January 1942, with just New Guinea waiting to be taken in April 1942. See this map below.

Sumatra alone is quite worth the fight. Pretty hard for the Japanese to reap the benefits of conquest when that large island is still under Allied control. Admittedly I don't know the numbers or quality of the troops the Dutch had there, but attacking the Japanese troops while they were still afloat has got to be the best use of limited resources.

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This is where Force Z needs to focus. And hopefully Phillips now have HMS Indomitable and Hermes along with the cruisers HMS Exeter and HMAS Perth and destroyers )otherwise from Java Sea) with him to guard Australia's approaches. Sommerville can head to Ceylon as per history (minus Indomitable and Hermes) to guard Indian Ocean and the approaches to Suez.

Agreed. The vital terrain at this point is not the Philippines -- remember, by mid-Feb, they too are already lost with the exception of the scratch force holed up on Bataan, and the garrison on Corregidor, along with some troops on Mindanao. The vital area to defend is Australia, and you don't want to be doing that at the Australian shoreline.

Thinking on old ships. What use can Phillips make of Hermes? And HMS Repulse poses issues in that she has very limited AA armament and short endurance.

Ferrying aircraft?

 

[Shortround6]

Thinking on old ships. What use can Phillips make of Hermes? And HMS Repulse poses issues in that she has very limited AA armament

They can't do a lot except show they can die bravely.
The Hermes is like an old out of shape light weight boxer trying to fight a younger, faster heavy weight.
Much the same as the Repulse. The Repulse might get one punch in and it might be able to run for time, but it has no defense and no endurance.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

They can't do a lot except show they can die bravely.
The Hermes is like an old out of shape light weight boxer trying to fight a younger, faster heavy weight.
Much the same as the Repulse. The Repulse might get one punch in and it might be able to run for time, but it has no defense and no endurance.

Repulse against a Kongo would have a fighting chance (not counting the escorts, but they do matter). Against, say, Nagato and a couple of Kongos, with escorts, the Allies are in serious trouble.

 

[EwenS]

As far as Hermes is concerned the Admiralty's view was expressed on 11 May 1939 in ADM 1/10133 which looked forward to planning the distribution of carriers in 1942 under certain circumstances. This was the proposed allocation for Hermes:-

Peace - in Reserve
War in Europe - based Halifax (for trade route protection)
War in Far East - based Kingston Jamaica.

Her aircraft capacity was 12 Swordfish. While she was fitted with arrester gear she had no crash barrier (so no deck park possible). She was small, slow, short ranged and poorly armed against air attack.

Her wartime career saw her deployed in places largely away from danger after a couple of months in Western approaches. Mainly IO and South Atlantic.

Bottom line is that she was little better than an escort carrier. She was certainly not capable of being sent into harms way as some kind of substitute fleet carrier.

 

[Shortround6]

The Repulse could not take a punch.
It did not get the same refit as the Renown.
The Repulse could take out the Kongos but the Kongos could take out the Repulse at similar ranges.
The Kongos had two more guns as we know.
The Kongos had much improved elevation but that was more a theoretical advantage. Firing at over 30,000yds gave a very poor return (accuracy) form most countries guns.

 

[Admiral Beez]

War in Far East - based Kingston Jamaica. Bottom line is that Hermes was little better than an escort carrier.

Why was Hermes sent even to Ceylon? Sommerville had Indomitable and Illustrious as fast fleets. What purpose was Hermes sent to conduct?

Even as an escort carrier Hermes is quite low in the water compared to the CVEs below. Of course money and resources were not available, but she really should have been replaced between the wars.

 

[EwenS]

Why was Hermes sent even to Ceylon? Sommerville had Indomitable and Illustrious as fast fleets. What purpose was Hermes sent to conduct?

Her operational station throughout 1941/42 was the Indian Ocean, during which time she patrolled from South Africa to the Persian Gulf and all the shipping lanes out into the central IO and across to Ceylon. Trincomalee was the main fleet base in the IO, with Colombo also being a regular port of call for RN ships. The question is why wouldn't she be "sent there".

In mid-March 1942 she had been sent to Trinco to prepare for escorting troop convoys carrying the Australian divisions back to Australia. That was also the reason for sending Cornwall and Dorsetshire to Colombo a few days later.

At the end of the month she had joined Somerville south of Ceylon when he gathered his fleet. But by 2 April, when the Japanese hadn't turned up as expected, she was sent back to Trinco to prepare to take part in Operation Ironclad, the invasion of Madagascar, for which shipping was already gathering in South Africa. After her time with the Eastern Fleet she would, at the very least, require refuelling from the massive fuel stocks held at Trinco, before sailing for South Africa. Trinco to Durban is over 4,200 miles so a refuelling stop somewhere like the Seychelles would have been necessary as well. Hermes range at 16 knots was about 4,400 miles and only 5,500 miles at 10 knots.

Incidentally Somerville had Indomitable and Formidable. Illustrious was en route from Britain to Durban atvtge beginning of April to participate in Operation Ironclad.

 

[Shortround6]

Hermes made a good recon platform looking for surface raiders or long range subs.
As a strike platform or air defense platform, not so much.
Tell the cruisers where the surface raider was and let them deal with it.
Or send Destroyers to deal with the submarine.