Bv 141 vs Fw 189

[SpicyJuan11]

Hello, I was wondering what advantages did the Bv 141 have over the Fw 189? Was it ultimately a better choice for the Luftwaffe going with the Fw 189? From what I've seen, the Fw 189 was superb in its role, and was even able to out turn attacking fighters. What if the LW went with the Bv 141?

 

[l'Omnivore Sobriquet]

If the LW went with the Bv-141 they would have reaped some "dary successfull iniative" short lived aura, reputation from its first months of employ, but the final conclusion as a war contribution couldn't have been any better than the Focke-Wulf's one.
The FW-189 was a great, truely successful aeroplane and also a welcome millitary design for its days. I doubt the Blohm und Voss could have been any better, though modern itself too. No big gain from the radical layout, the FW-189 being quite uncompromised too.

Those aeroplanes were slow observation aircrafts requiring a minimum of air superiority above the fields to operate at all. The Fw-189 was truely good when those conditions were met. Even when marginaly. Then after that.... no miracle.
Feels no need for a Bv-141 really.
Feels a need for continuated air-superiority above the fields...

 

[davebender]

Quite common for low level recon aircraft to get one engine shot out. What happens to Bv141 under those circumstance? Would it even be controllable?

 

[SpicyJuan11]

Quite common for low level recon aircraft to get one engine shot out. What happens to Bv141 under those circumstance? Would it even be controllable?

Idk, was the Bv armored well enough? Also, could the Fw 189 fly with only 1 engine?

 

[kool kitty89]

Would the GR 14M radials or Isotta Fraschini Delta be close enough to the As 410/411 in size/weight to be fitted to the Fw 189 without unreasonably complicated modification to the airframe? That might have been a more promising than the BV 141. (placing the cockpit module on the main fuselage and engines on a pod on a BV-141-like aircraft might have been more interesting too, allowing smaller/less powerful engines in a push-pull arrangement for similar combined performance to the 801 but no toque and potential single engine-out flight capability)

 

[SpicyJuan11]

Would the GR 14M radials or Isotta Fraschini Delta be close enough to the As 410/411 in size/weight to be fitted to the Fw 189 without unreasonably complicated modification to the airframe? That might have been a more promising than the BV 141. (placing the cockpit module on the main fuselage and engines on a pod on a BV-141-like aircraft might have been more interesting too, allowing smaller/less powerful engines in a push-pull arrangement for similar combined performance to the 801 but no toque and potential single engine-out flight capability)

Well the GR and Isotta weighed at 924 and 1,111 pounds respectively compared to the 694 of the Argus, so idk, you tell me?

 

[Denniss]

There was actually zero chance to get the BV 141B with BMW 801 into production - insufficient engine availability, Fw 190 with much higher priority. Chances for the BV 141A with BMW 132 were not better either due to Ju 52 eating 3 per a/c.
I have some doubts about flying capabilities of the BV 141 - the A had similar weight as Fw 189 and was not really faster, the B was much heavier but despite it's gain in power the speed advantage was not that high + the speed gain was at medium alt (tac recon needs low alt speed). Don't know how test reports stated maneuverability of the 141 vs 189.

 

[Shortround6]

There may be a problem getting either engine. the workers/management at G-R walked a fine line between obstructing production and getting reprisals from the Gremans, one account claims actual production was about 25% of what the Germans planned/hoped for. Some of the German planes powered by G-R engines were powered by engines pulled from existing French aircraft as they were scrapped (or partially scrapped) so that supply does have it's limits.
Isotta Fraschini may have had a multitude of designs but I don't believe any of them were ever manufactured in large quantities (by the hundreds per month instead of by the dozens) so their ability to supply a major program might be doubtful.

Wiki says 3300 of the Delta were built but it was first run in 1927(?) and it was being offered post war with a 2 speed supercharger drive so the numbers made in any one year might not be great. It also powered the Caproni 313/314 with around 670-680 built (two engines each) so that sucked up a fair amount of production (you also need 30-50% extra spare engines and if you overhaul/rebuild program isn't good you need even more).

 

[SpicyJuan11]

There may be a problem getting either engine. the workers/management at G-R walked a fine line between obstructing production and getting reprisals from the Gremans, one account claims actual production was about 25% of what the Germans planned/hoped for. Some of the German planes powered by G-R engines were powered by engines pulled from existing French aircraft as they were scrapped (or partially scrapped) so that supply does have it's limits.
Isotta Fraschini may have had a multitude of designs but I don't believe any of them were ever manufactured in large quantities (by the hundreds per month instead of by the dozens) so their ability to supply a major program might be doubtful.

Wiki says 3300 of the Delta were built but it was first run in 1927(?) and it was being offered post war with a 2 speed supercharger drive so the numbers made in any one year might not be great. It also powered the Caproni 313/314 with around 670-680 built (two engines each) so that sucked up a fair amount of production (you also need 30-50% extra spare engines and if you overhaul/rebuild program isn't good you need even more).

Is there any way that the German's could've increased GR production?

 

[Shortround6]

More executions of workers?

Sort of joking but that was the situation. The French work force was obstructing-slowing production as much as possible without provoking retaliation. Asking workers of conquered countries to perform at 100-110% to produce weapons to conquer more countries is probably asking a bit much.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

More executions of workers?

Sort of joking but that was the situation. The French work force was obstructing-slowing production as much as possible without provoking retaliation. Asking workers of conquered countries to perform at 100-110% to produce weapons to conquer more countries is probably asking a bit much.

Well I was thinking of transferring German's.

 

[davebender]

Same way everyone else increased production. If you want more aircraft engines then you build more aircraft engine factories. Just as you get 32 ton medium tanks by building medium tank factories.

Naturally this requires resources to be shifted from somewhere else in the budget. It comes down to national priorities.

 

[Shortround6]

Somehow I don't think building more engine factories in France to be manned by French workers and low level management to build 1939/40 French engine designs would have been the best use of German resources.

 

[kool kitty89]

Wiki says 3300 of the Delta were built but it was first run in 1927(?) and it was being offered post war with a 2 speed supercharger drive so the numbers made in any one year might not be great. It also powered the Caproni 313/314 with around 670-680 built (two engines each) so that sucked up a fair amount of production (you also need 30-50% extra spare engines and if you overhaul/rebuild program isn't good you need even more).

Expanding the hypothetical range here: would it have made any sense (especially pre-war or very early war) for a license of the Delta to be secured by Argus or Hirth? (possibly with continued development from said German firm) Hirth possibly more so given the trouble they seemed to have with the HM.512. Then again, there's the Czech engine production as well with Sagitta. (though those engines had merits over the AS-410 as well and interesting in their own right)

There's also the Czech (and later French) Hispano 12Y production that seems largely unexploited by the germans. (more relevant to the previous Fw 187 discussion, though)



A side comment on the push/pull ENGINE pod/boom arrangement (admittedly not what the 141 used) would be somewhat greater flexibility in adjusting CoG and engine positioning than mounts embedded in or directly affixed fore/aft of the wing.

 

[pbehn]

The BV 141 was modelled by AIRFIX and allowed me to use the word asymmetric for the first time in front of an adult. On a serious note its plus point was it had one engine and a wide field of view its negative point was it had one engine.