USAAF/RAF fighter losses to italian fighters 1943/44

[Jerrybandit67]

I would try. It won't be quick.

Only against fighters or also against bombers?

better off against fighters

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

better off against fighters

The first G.55 claim was on june 24th 1943 against a P-40 by Maggiore Ricardo Roveda of 353 Sq/20° Gruppo/51° Stormo CT in the south of Sardinia. The germans of II/JG.51 claimed other 3. Total losses for the P-40s of 325th FG were 3, one allegedly to flak.

Roveda claimed another P-40 on june 28th, with MC.202 of 352 Sq/20° Gruppo/51° Stormo CT claiming 2 more. Only one lost in this combat.

On august 27th, Fausto Morettin claimed a P-38, with another as probable. Paolo Pedrerti also claimed another P-38 probable (both pilots from 353 Sq/20° Gruppo/51° Stormo CT). The 82nd FG lost 2 P-38. The germans of III/JG 53 claimed 3 more.

There were other similar clashes around this time, were various italian and german units fought with different allied units with high overclaiming (especially by the italians) and an imposible task to conclude who shot who.

After the armistice the G.55 made flew claims in actions were other fighters were in the mix.

The G.55 seems to be the least succcessful italian serie 5 fighters, due to late coming to the war, a difficult airframe for production (some 15.000 man hours initially) and, after the armistice, the destruction of the factory.

The most of the combat between serie 5 fighters nad allied fighters were from late may early june 1943 till the armistice, overall around Pantelleria and Sicily. The ANR after the armistice use mainly the MC.205 but took sometime to took of and had a stop in the fighting due to german fuel restrictions for a couple of months and after fought with Bf.109 only.

 

[Jerrybandit67]

The first G.55 claim was on june 24th 1943 against a P-40 by Maggiore Ricardo Roveda of 353 Sq/20° Gruppo/51° Stormo CT in the south of Sardinia. The germans of II/JG.51 claimed other 3. Total losses for the P-40s of 325th FG were 3, one allegedly to flak.

Roveda claimed another P-40 on june 28th, with MC.202 of 352 Sq/20° Gruppo/51° Stormo CT claiming 2 more. Only one lost in this combat.

On august 27th, Fausto Morettin claimed a P-38, with another as probable. Paolo Pedrerti also claimed another P-38 probable (both pilots from 353 Sq/20° Gruppo/51° Stormo CT). The 82nd FG lost 2 P-38. The germans of III/JG 53 claimed 3 more.

There were other similar clashes around this time, were various italian and german units fought with different allied units with high overclaiming (especially by the italians) and an imposible task to conclude who shot who.

After the armistice the G.55 made flew claims in actions were other fighters were in the mix.

The G.55 seems to be the least succcessful italian serie 5 fighters, due to late coming to the war, a difficult airframe for production (some 15.000 man hours initially) and, after the armistice, the destruction of the factory.

The most of the combat between serie 5 fighters nad allied fighters were from late may early june 1943 till the armistice, overall around Pantelleria and Sicily. The ANR after the armistice use mainly the MC.205 but took sometime to took of and had a stop in the fighting due to german fuel restrictions for a couple of months and after fought with Bf.109 only.

found spitfire mk IX EN449 shot down by fighters claimed by Maresciallo Massimo Salvatore flying C.205V

 

[Jerrybandit67]

what about the RE.2005 Saggitario

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

found spitfire mk IX EN449 shot down by fighters claimed by Maresciallo Massimo Salvatore flying C.205V

That Spitfire was shot down on august 16th 1943, with out doubt by MC.205s of 4° Stormo CT.

Who shot down Flight Officer Brendan Baker of 92 Sq is more doubtful.

4 Spitfires went to escort P-40s of the 57th FG on armed recce to Messina. Two returned early, one due engine problems and the other escorting it back to base.

The italians (a dozen MC.205V) attempted to attack the P-40s and the Spitfires intervened and in the combat Flg Off Baker was shot down and POW (in october was liberated and returned to 92 Sq). He claimed 2 Macchis shot down (none lost).

As said before, the italians were from 4° Stormo CT and depending on the source, claims were 3 and one probable by 3 pilots (MAW 4, altough there must be a typo in it, since Massimo Salvatore is credited twice for the same probable) or 4 and 2 probables ("Spitfires over Sicily", SoS).

Claimants in MAW 4 are Mario Mecatti, Renato Baroni and Vittorino Daffara for the kills and Massimo Salvatore (twice) and Fabio Clauser for the probable:

Claimants in SoS are Luigi Mariotti, Renato Baroni, Vittorino Daffara and Fabio Clauser for the kills and the latter two also probables. Salvatore isn't mentioned at all. Clauser aircraft nose was covered in oil from its victim, so maybe it was him who shot Baker down.

In SoS there is Flg Off Baker combat report and the aftermath of his shot down:

There is a typo in the date above, as both MAW and SoS give the 16th as the date of the shot down.

 

[Jerrybandit67]

theres also spitfire VIII JF357 shot down on july 27 1944 by possibly italian fighters

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

what about the RE.2005 Saggitario

The last serie 5 to come on to service. Seems it was the best in performance but the least built.

The first claims by Re 2005 I can find against fighters (there were some against bombers in april 1943 around Naples) were on july 11st 1943 (Operation Husky day D+1) over Catania by Giulio Torresi (a Spitfire and another one pobable) of 371 Sq/22 Gruppo CT. No losses recorded in this fight for either side, the Spitfires came from 229 Sq, as per MAW 4. In SoS, the 229 Sq clashed with MC.205 of 351 and 360 escorting italian Ju-87.

That same afternoon was another clash between Re.2005 and Spitfires. The Reggianes were escorting G.50 fighter bombers and clashed with Spitfires from 111 Sq. Three of this were claimed and one Re.2005 was shot down and other damaged and force landed at base. Claimants were Germano La Ferla, Tullio Arduini and Edgardo Vaghi. None of the Spitfires were lost.

On the 13th, one Spitfire of 93 Sq was shot down newr Catania, ES282, flown by F. W. Bridger. Sos attributed this to german pilot Erhard Niese of 7/JG77. MAW 4 says that Bridger could had Belén shot down by Niese but reflects that Giulio Torresi also made a claim for a Spitfire a little earlier. Ali d' Italia number 16, a monograph about the Re 2005, stated that FW Bridges (sic) was shot down by Torresi when it was attacking Vaghi. Bridger was POW but escaped twice and was in 93 Sq by july 24th. So choose your winner. In this case, I tend to aligne with Ali d' Italia due to the details in it but certainty is imposible.

Next claims were for La Ferla and him with Eugenio Salvi, both P-38s, on july 29th but none was lost.

Next came a probable by three pilots of 22° Gruppo CT on august 11st, but Domenico Laiolo flying a MC.205 and 4 german pilots also claimed P-38s. Two were lost of 71st FS/1st FG, both pilots POW.

On august 17th, 3 P-38s were downed (all pilots KIA). The americans attributed the losses to flak. One german pilot made a claim and Lucio Biagini of 359 Sq/22° Gruppo CT another.

On august 21st, Signorini-Gremigni claimed another P-38 but other 6 were claimed by other italians flying MC.202 and two by germans. No P-38s were lost, only 3 damaged of 1st FG.

There were some problems with the tail unit under combat conditions that limited the combat use of the 2005 besise the small production run.

After the armistice, the germans seized some units. Some sources claim that they were used in Romania for defense of the Ploesti oil fields or / and in Hungray while other sources limited the german use to Italy in second line units.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

theres also spitfire VIII JF357 shot down on july 27 1944 by possibly italian fighters

Lieutenant A. E. Goodman of 241 Sq was shot down by Fw. Menzel, of 1/NAGr 11 (a recce unit), flying a Bf.109G

 

[Steamed_Banana]

Having read through all of those MAW books i'd say there were a lot of losses from MC 202s, mainly because those go back pretty far in time and were deployed in large-ish numbers (around 150-250 being available at varying times in the North African campaign). Some MC 205s were involved especially around the time of the invasions of Sicily and Italy, until the Italian surrender. But there were fewer so much lower loss numbers. Re 2005 and Fiat G.55 were fairly rare, largely because they went into action around the time of the collapse of Mussolini's government, but do show up on both sides in 1944-45 and occasionally inflict losses, including a few B-24s IIRC. Earlier Re 2001 etc. were sometimes involved in a small way in the convoy fights and around Malta mainly.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

The first G.55 claim was on june 24th 1943 against a P-40 by Maggiore Ricardo Roveda of 353 Sq/20° Gruppo/51° Stormo CT in the south of Sardinia. The germans of II/JG.51 claimed other 3. Total losses for the P-40s of 325th FG were 3, one allegedly to flak.

Roveda claimed another P-40 on june 28th, with MC.202 of 352 Sq/20° Gruppo/51° Stormo CT claiming 2 more. Only one lost in this combat.

On august 27th, Fausto Morettin claimed a P-38, with another as probable. Paolo Pedrerti also claimed another P-38 probable (both pilots from 353 Sq/20° Gruppo/51° Stormo CT). The 82nd FG lost 2 P-38. The germans of III/JG 53 claimed 3 more.

There were other similar clashes around this time, were various italian and german units fought with different allied units with high overclaiming (especially by the italians) and an imposible task to conclude who shot who.

After the armistice the G.55 made flew claims in actions were other fighters were in the mix.

The G.55 seems to be the least succcessful italian serie 5 fighters, due to late coming to the war, a difficult airframe for production (some 15.000 man hours initially) and, after the armistice, the destruction of the factory.

The most of the combat between serie 5 fighters nad allied fighters were from late may early june 1943 till the armistice, overall around Pantelleria and Sicily. The ANR after the armistice use mainly the MC.205 but took sometime to took of and had a stop in the fighting due to german fuel restrictions for a couple of months and after fought with Bf.109 only.

Agree. A lot of RA units had both C.202 and C.205 in the same squadron sometimes. They went about equal with the C.202 against fighters in my opinion, but did better against the medium and heavy bombers, mainly B-25s and B-24s, because of their heavier armament and higher speed. Similar to the Bf 109G-6 compared to the F-4 and G-2.

Against Hurricanes, early P-38s (F and G), and early Kittyhawks (Mk 1 and 1a), MC 202 did a bit better than even, maybe 1.2 kills per loss.
Against later mark Kittyhawks (II, IIa and III), Spit V, and P-47s they went about even. 1 for 1.
Against Spit IX or VIII, and later mark P-38s (H and J), they did a bit worse than even, maybe 0.8 kills per loss.