Coastal Command Form Orange abbreviations

[WATU]

Hey WATU,

I went through my downloads and such and found this timeline for the RAF/CC sir dropped pyrotechnics. I put together a brief pdf below with the info. Page 1 has a brief description of the different types and it mentions the "marine marker" by name, as separate from flame float, smoke float, sea marker, and smoke generator. The following 3 pages are the timeline of the deployment of the different pyrotechnics. It also mentions the marine marker although it calls them "marker marine"

When I was gong through the full manual TM 9-1985-1 British Explosive Ordnance 1952 I found descriptions of the Marine Marker Mark I, II, & III. Apparently they could be dropped with a time delay before producing a bright flame and some (not much?) smoke. Here is a link to the manual at the Bullet Picker website.

"https://www.bulletpicker.com/pdf/TM-9-1985-1.pdf"

Interesting. I was not aware of these "marine marker" devices, only the other four.

Thanks. I think I assumed Marine Markers were just labels for the different versions but I have never really looked at sea markers. I have Pyrotechnics AP1661E but really for flares but I guess it has markers in it if I bothered to photograph those pages.

 

[WATU]

ASC N/F I am sure N/F is non-functional or not functioning. Another Form Orange has "S/E N/F" which looks like "Special Equipment Not Functioning" i.e ASV.
What piece of equipment could ASC be? Air Speed ....?

 

[SaparotRob]

I don't know what that is about. Here is a paste from a Morse site. " AR •-•-• Stop (end of message), often written".

Uninteresting fact. On the LIRR crew boards, my craft was listed as Telegrapher. I even have a telegraph key.
We haven't used telegraphs in over fifty years (I'm guessing).

 

[WATU]

Uninteresting fact. On the LIRR crew boards, my craft was listed as Telegrapher. I even have a telegraph key.
We haven't used telegraphs in over fifty years (I'm guessing).

Don't rush into change!

 

[ThomasP]

Maybe "ASC" is another typo and should be "ASV"?

I do not know for sure, but I think I have read that the CC Whitleys at that time were equipped with ASV, so "ASV N/F".

 

[WATU]

Maybe "ASC" is another typo and should be "ASV"?

I do not know for sure, but I think I have read that the CC Whitleys at that time were equipped with ASV, so "ASV N/F".

Good thinking. Again if spoken to someone c and v sound similar and, again they

 

[WATU]

Continued...they are adjacent keys. These Whitleys had ASV. I think you have it! Nice one.

 

[WATU]

PL/A703 is back in play. Tge idea that it was a sequential transmission number does not work as several mission had PL/A703. Someone suggested that PL could be Plymouth if it is an area thing. Some flights were PL/A704 and G3, G4 were other suffixes. If PL is Plymouth what is G?

 

[ThomasP]

If what I have read is correct, PL/A was on the border of the Celtic Sea and the Bay of Biscay, PL/E was in the eastern Bay of Biscay. Don't know where PL/G was.

I have read that the patrol areas were given coded designations and that there was intentionally no logical sequence to the letter suffix or number suffix.

FWIW Maybe this will help localize the sectors.

[edit: loaded a better copy of the map]

 

[ThomasP]

Also, this map of CC Sqn Stations and Strengths along with Group boundaries, from Feb'43 (although it is of somewhat poor quality).

 

[WATU]

If what I have read is correct, PL/A was on the border of the Celtic Sea and the Bay of Biscay, PL/E was in the eastern Bay of Biscay. Don't know where PL/G was.

I have read that the patrol areas were given coded designations and that there was intentionally no logical sequence to the letter suffix or number suffix.

FWIW Maybe this will help localize the sectors.
View attachment 874468

[edit: loaded a better copy of the map]

I think you have the best explanation. I will go with that. Good work, thanks.

 

[ThomasP]

I just realized what your user name means.

 

[WATU]

Here is a summary of the likely answers.

Form Orange abbreviations Thinking as of 6 April 19.00

PL/A703 Probably an area. PL could be Patrol or Plymouth? Other missions have /A704, A622, G3, G4.

ASC N/F Thought to be a typo with ASC being ASV. N/F is not functioning. Another flight had "S/E N/F" which would be "special equipment (ASV) not functioning".

DER OTU 1 A Derange patrol. Designated OTU 1? One of a range of patrol profiles.

Gare AR Gare was amended to Gave in a subsequent massage. AR is a Morse note for end of message.

S/C Set course.

FIC FIX Typo.

Thanks to all who threw ideas in.

Paul

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

A query on the ideas about ASV.

10 OTU was Bomber Command which did not use ASV. So was the unit issued with Coastal Command Whitley complete with radar? If so who was trained to use it?

 

[WATU]

A query on the ideas about ASV.

10 OTU was Bomber Command which did not use ASV. So was the unit issued with Coastal Command Whitley complete with radar? If so who was trained to use it?

A fair question. I looked at the first seven missions in the file, all by different Whitleys. All had S/E or ASV specified. Incidentally G/10 had "ASV N/F" which supports the view that ASC was actually ASV in my initial case. All seven aircraft had white camouflage. The aircraft were clearly Coastal Command specifications. One source quotes a month to change from black to white allowing for four coats and drying times. Could the Bomber Command crews have arrived without aircraft and been provided with existing Coastal Whitleys? The ORBs might shed some light on that if they can be identified for the detachment.

 

[ThomasP]

I do not know if this applies specifically in this particular case, but OTU crews (and/or crew-members) were sometimes 'seconded' [my term] to BC and CC. This happened when there was a general shortage of personnel or when particular operations required additional numbers. I have read of this occurring for some of the early larger bombing strikes (400-1000 aircraft) where they used crews and sometimes even aircraft from the OTUs, and when standing up Sqns for BC and CC (I have specifically read some of the Wellington equipped CC Sqn drew crew from the OTUs).

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Not sure it was called seconded. The Bomber Command OTU aircraft were used, along with Coastal Command units to put together the 1,000 bomber raids in 1942. Bomber Command OTU units also dropped leaflets over mostly France as well as the anti submarine patrols, Bomber Command operational units also did anti submarine patrols for a time.

According to the Bomber Command War Room Report, training unit sorties on bombing or leaflet operations (plus maybe spoof raids), 252 Hampden, 6,022 Wellington, 690 Whitley (plus 1,847 Anti Submarine), 467 Stirling, 1,066 Halifax, 737 Lancaster.

365 Halifax and 116 Lancaster Anti Submarine sorties.