Cold War Gone Hot

[stasoid]

Please state your facts that show that Germany felt they were taken hostage? Communist propaganda does not count either...

Those facts are well known to everyone - numerous anti-nuclear protests in Western Europe in late 70th and early 80th. The question is who were those people - students, houswives or just some left-wing pacifists. And an anti-military protest was not necessarily anti-american or anti-soviet. The main objective was a complete removal of intermediate range nukes from Europe and that was acheived by signing a treaty at the end of 80th eliminating this class of missles.

 

[pbfoot]

Those facts are well known to everyone - numerous anti-nuclear protests in Western Europe in late 70th and early 80th. The question is who were those people - students, houswives or just some left-wing pacifists. And an anti-military protest was not necessarily anti-american or anti-soviet. The main objective was a complete removal of intermediate range nukes from Europe and that was acheived by signing a treaty at the end of 80th eliminating this class of missles.

yes there was rioting and protests but I don't believe the same option was open to students in the WarPac countries . The students were probably more interested in trying to obtain jeans and Beatle music .

 

[timshatz]

Hey Stasoid, did you catch this Fashion show in Moscow back in the 80s. Given the options, I can see where an invasion of the west be a good idea!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va_IIOKYl6M

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hello D.A.I.G,

there were strong antiamerican ressentiments in Germany indeed. Remember all those demonstrations against the stationing of US troops in Germany etc. I know quite a lot of German students from my Austauschprogramm and they are not that proamerican either.

Just because some people protest does not mean that they speak for a whole country. There are protests against homosexuals on a daily basis in the United States. Does that mean that everyone in the United States is anti homosexual?


I lived in Germany during that time, did you?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Those facts are well known to everyone - numerous anti-nuclear protests in Western Europe in late 70th and early 80th. The question is who were those people - students, houswives or just some left-wing pacifists. And an anti-military protest was not necessarily anti-american or anti-soviet. The main objective was a complete removal of intermediate range nukes from Europe and that was acheived by signing a treaty at the end of 80th eliminating this class of missles.

Sorry but that is no proof what so ever at all. That is just your believe and analysis of what you think the truth to be. People protesting do not speak for the nation as a whole.

Sorry try again...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

yes there was rioting and protests but I don't believe the same option was open to students in the WarPac countries . The students were probably more interested in trying to obtain jeans and Beatle music .

Very good point, and that is also a big difference between the West and the Soviets right there.

 

[stasoid]

Hey Stasoid, did you catch this Fashion show in Moscow back in the 80s. Given the options, I can see where an invasion of the west be a good idea!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va_IIOKYl6M

Funny commercial! Having no choice is no fun. For sure.
That's one of the main reasons the USSR has collapsed - its inefficient socialis economy ate the country from inside.

Just because some people protest does not mean that they speak for a whole country

Agree. But I dont believe that the silent majority of western europeans have ever enjoyed having nuclear missles placed in their backyards either. It's obviouse that type of weapon didnt make them feel safer in any way.

It would be nice to hear a Frenchman or German's who remembers that time, opinion on that matter.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Agree. But I dont believe that the silent majority of western europeans have ever enjoyed having nuclear missles placed in their backyards either. It's obviouse that type of weapon didnt make them feel safer in any way.

It may not have, but that again does not prove your theory. Your theory is only an opinion of what you think the truth to be.

The United States has no more nuclear tipped missiles in Germany, the Germans still protest about nuclear weapons. What does that prove? Nothing.

The city of Stuttgart has a population of 590,429 and the whole metropolitan of Stuttgart has a population of 2.7 million people. The HQ for US European Command is there. Every year there are 3 or 4 demonstrations right outside the front gate. Do you know how many people turn up for it? On average about 45 or 50 people. That is one in every 54,000 people living in the Stuttgart area.

Do you know who they are? Mostly far left students. Why do they do it? Because they think it is cool. They skip school and walk around in T-Shirts with a red star on it. Yeah Communism is very cool...

Where I live in Ansbach we just had a demonstration a few weeks ago. Ansbach has a population of 40723 people. Do you know how many people showed up for the demonstration? 12 people (4 of them were the 5 or 6 year old children of some of the protesters so they do not count because the only opinion they have is what flavor Kool-Aid they are wnat ). That is 1 in every 5090 people living in Ansbach.

Do you know who they are? 4 were children about 5 or 6 years old how were brought by there parents. 6 were students and 2 were former American soldiers who got out of the Army.

It would be nice to hear a Frenchman or German's who remembers that time, opinion on that matter.

So my opinion does not count on it. At the time I held a German passport, and I still have lived in Germany for the majority of my life.

Thanks...

 

[Ramirezzz]

From what I have read, the Soviets didn't put their subs in the Atlantic that often. Not the boomers. It was a mistake of the west to think the Russian sub fleet operated on the same strategic basis as the Nato navies.

My understanding is the Soviets knew of the SOSUS line and the strong probability of their sub fleet being tracked once they passed Iceland. As such, they usually didn't send their boomers south.

in the early -to mid 1980ies at least three or four subs were on patrol at one time in the Northern Atlantic.

 

[Ramirezzz]

Hey Stasoid, did you catch this Fashion show in Moscow back in the 80s. Given the options, I can see where an invasion of the west be a good idea!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va_IIOKYl6M

lol what a cheap capitalist crap "Not our methods" (c) V.I. Lenin

 

[Ramirezzz]

Just because some people protest does not mean that they speak for a whole country. There are protests against homosexuals on a daily basis in the United States. Does that mean that everyone in the United States is anti homosexual?

That depends.
As I suggest, you lived mostly in South Germany. Well I spent much time in Berlin both West and East and I tell you what. There're more centrists and lefties that you can ever imagine, then and now. What was the quote of the SPD and PDS during the last elections? 60 or 70 percent I believe? Guess how proamerican those voters are?
That depends,really..

I lived in Germany during that time, did you?

in other Germany, yes, quite a long time.

 

[stasoid]

It may not have, but that again does not prove your theory. Your theory is only an opinion of what you think the truth to be.

So my opinion does not count on it. At the time I held a German passport, and I still have lived in Germany for the majority of my life.

Thanks...

OK, let it be just my theory.

And you opinion counts, of course, ... among other opinions.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That depends.
As I suggest, you lived mostly in South Germany. Well I spent much time in Berlin both West and East and I tell you what. There're more centrists and lefties that you can ever imagine, then and now. What was the quote of the SPD and PDS during the last elections? 60 or 70 percent I believe? Guess how proamerican those voters are?
That depends,really..

Actually I lived for about 8 years in the Ruhr gebiet...

As you say it does depend on where you go. Of course in the former East Germany there are lots of far leftists. What do you expect after living under the Communist Soviet thumb print for so long.

Again the point is this:

1. A minority can not speak for a whole nation.

2. While you are entitled to your opinion, and believe me when I say that I want to hear your opinion. An opinion however is not fact so please do not call it fact...

in other Germany, yes, quite a long time.

But do you really know the true German, or do you only know the Germans you chose to surround yourself with?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

OK, let it be just my theory.

And you opinion counts, of course, ... among other opinions.

Please do not take me wrong. You are entitled to your opinion and as I said to Ramierezzz, I certainly want to hear your opinion.

Fact is though that a minority can not speak for a whole nation, and an opinion is not fact.

 

[stasoid]

Fact is though that a minority can not speak for a whole nation, and an opinion is not fact.

Agree, but on the other hand, that silent majority of ordinary people who never participate in any kind of organized protests or rallys wouldnt be automaically counted as pro- nuclear/military/american etc... either

 

[pbfoot]

Agree, but on the other hand, that silent majority of ordinary people who never participate in any kind of organized protests or rallys wouldnt be automaically counted as pro- nuclear/military/american etc... either

Thats also a fact but then the silent majority went to the polls with more then one viable option and the majority ruled the weapons were there . I recall when the initial cruise missle tests were flown in Canada and when the USAF guys recovered the unit it was plastered with" refuse the cruise stickers "
they were some pissed off and the guys who stuck them on as a jpke thought it some what humourous

 

[Ramirezzz]

2. While you are entitled to your opinion, and believe me when I say that I want to hear your opinion. An opinion however is not fact so please do not call it fact...

agreed. lass uns dabei belassn.

But do you really know the true German, or do you only know the Germans you chose to surround yourself with?

and what exactly is the true German ? or the true Russian or American?
I knew Germans of pretty all social levels and they expressed pretty various opinions.

 

[Matt308]

Hmmm.. .sounds like stasiod would make a good US conservative. You just painted the majority of conservatives perfectly. They are too busy WORKING to participate in organized protests or rallys.

Good post.

 

[stasoid]

Matt, that's what I'm doing in Canada - too busy, working hard, paying my taxes, never participating in any anti-war... etc activities, I always vote for Conservatives, but that doesnt mean I support all of their hard-line initiatives in foreign affairs.

 

[Matt308]

It wasn't an accusation. Relax.