Cold War Gone Hot

[Burmese Bandit]

A hot war with nuclear weapons... = MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction)

 

[BombTaxi]

IMHO, the problem with the EU is that it occupies a very unclear position in European politics. Edicts are handed down from Brussels, but the EU cannot enforce them in the way the US federal government try to could enforce a statute against a state. Indeed, it is proverbial here in the UK that the closer one gets to Brussels, the less EU regulations are adhered to.

However, I don't think that the EU is as despised as it was back in the 90s. With no disrespect intended, I believe that there is a growing feeling, in the UK at least, that we should be aware of alternatives to the post-1945 alliance with the US. The UK has now completed repayment of it's war debts to the US, freeing us of a large financial obligation. And I have to agree with other posters that NATO has done next to nothing to help it's European members when attacked. While Canada and Portugal offered basing rights during the Falklands conflict, this could have been achieved without NATO - Canada after all has close historical ties with the UK and Portugal had nothing to gain by refusing assistance. The real 'benefit' of NATO - having a superpower to back you up when threatened, has never been made available to European members - Georgia is a stark example of this. On the other hand, there is a perception that when the US went to war in Afghanistan and especially Iraq, European members were expected to provide troops, although the wars were deeply unpopular in Europe. Certainly, very few people in the UK supported the Iraq invasion at the time, and it is now known that the intelligence used to justify deployment was inaccurate and had been altered to support a deployment that the government knew had no popular support.

I think the development of the European rapid reaction force is a positive step, and it will eventually supplant and then replace the NATO alliance, Europe is increasingly acting in concert with itself and seeing it's foreign policy as being separate from that of the US for the first time in 60 years. It is only logical that the transatlantic alliance system will dissolve, as the reality it was designed to meet no longer exists.

BTW, before someone jumps on me, I am not anti-American, pro-terrorist, or anything else of the king. I think we are seeing a major shift in global politics, with Europe rising as a power in it's ow right. Inevitably, that means there will be substantial change in political alignments.

 

[Amsel]

Times have changed. The European countries do not need our assistance right now. But when assistance was needed we helped. And I can imagine if they are ever needed again we will send millions of our boys into harms way.

 

[BombTaxi]

That's the point, Amsel - when Georgia needed help, NATO looked the other way. If America is serious about maintaining it's European alliance, it needs to offer something tangible. European troops are fighting and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan in wars that have very little popular support. There doesn't seem to be any gain to this - bin Laden has not been caught, the Taliban has not been crushed, and there still aren't any WMDs in Iraq. That is how a lot of people over here perceive the situation. Yet when Russia attacks a European NATO state... like I say, NATO looked the other way.

 

[evangilder]

Georgia is/was NOT a NATO state. The list of NATO nations is on the NATO website:
NATO Member Countries

NATO did not "look the other way" as you say. If you expected NATO to go in there, guns blazing, then you are also expecting to create an international incident of unprecedented danger.

 

[pbfoot]

. European troops are fighting and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan in wars that have very little popular support. There doesn't seem to be any gain to this - bin Laden has not been caught, the Taliban has not been crushed,.

I think that the US has let down NATO in Afghanistan however most of the NATO nations in Afghanistan are bogus and are hiding out in safety . Belgium , Germany, Spain , Italy they have big numbers of personel but lack political or military balls .

http://www.nato.int/isaf/docu/epub/pdf/isaf_placemat_081201.pdf

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think that the US has let down NATO in Afghanistan

And how is that????? Right now, from what I understand all forces are under a central NATO command. It wasn't that bleak of a picture when there was a sole US commander running the show.

Folks - don't think for one second those running the war in Afghanistan ever think they are going to entirely eradicate the Taliban. That mission will be left to left the Afghanistan Government do that and eventually we will pack our bags and leave. This was echoed by our President elect this morning on a TV show here in the US.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

when Georgia needed help, NATO looked the other way.

Georgia got what it deserved and they are lucky they are still in tact as a country. The leader of Georgia is a loose cannon and now Georgia should never be part of NATO.

Why even have NATO? It's an obsolete concept.

 

[pbfoot]

And how is that????? Right now, from what I understand all forces are under a central NATO command. It wasn't that bleak of a picture when there was a sole US commander running the show.

can't ever recall our guys ever wanting to be under US control usually the opposite, and if you weren't farting around in Iraq maybe mo one would be in this situation

 

[FLYBOYJ]

can't ever recall our guys ever wanting to be under US control usually the opposite, and if you weren't farting around in Iraq maybe mo one would be in this situation

And again what situation is this??? Flat out, the US turned the operation over to "NATO" and its gone to sh!t, and that's not taking anything away from the guys on the ground. Sorry but some of the NATO leadership running the show are nothing more than a bunch of whiny pansy asses and the US involvement in Iraq has nothing to do with this.

Bottom line, some those in NATO running the show in Afghanistan shouldn't be there.

 

[Amsel]

The war against the terrorists has proved to be tougher then most people can handle. It is a just conflict and worthy of support within our alliance. If the world stood up together against these secret organizations they could be erradicated much easier. For political reasons this has proved to be impossible. I for one am proud that the United States has the fortitude to combat the jihad against the West. There have been some mistakes made but that is war and the fog of war is always there.

 

[pbfoot]

And again what situation is this??? Flat out, the US turned the operation over to "NATO" and its gone to sh!t, and that's not taking anything away from the guys on the ground. Sorry but some of the NATO leadership running the show are nothing more than a bunch of whiny pansy asses and the US involvement in Iraq has nothing to do with this.

Bottom line, some those in NATO running the show in Afghanistan shouldn't be there.

The situation where by the Taliban is gaining control , the US controls 14 of the 27 zones take a look at the map on my link .
We up here are taking more casualties in proportion then you guys

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The situation where by the Taliban is gaining control , the US controls 14 of the 27 zones take a look at the map on my link .
We up here are taking more casualties in proportion then you guys

And why is that? The Taliban has regrouped and there were warnings about that happening as early as 2006. In October US General David McKiernan also warned the situation could get worse and that was to be expected in this conflict, Between 2002 and 2005 when the Taliban previously regrouped and were beaten back and this must be done again, its that simple.

Right now the US has about 30,000 troops in Afghanistan and you're probably going to see more after Obama gets into office. We lost about 130 troops this year, over 600 since 2002. Canada has about 3000 troops deployed and lost about 100 since 2002! If any country who deploys troops to the region are doing so under the premise that they, by proportion are loosing too many troops or taking too many casualties, then maybe they shouldn't be there in the first place - this is exactly what I'm talking about. For the most part the losses taken by the entire coalition is remarkably low considering the size of the operation, the length of time it has been going on and the end results achieved.

Enduring Freedom Casualties - Special Reports

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think that the US has let down NATO in

How do you figure?

Afghanistan however most of the NATO nations in Afghanistan are bogus and are hiding out in safety . Belgium , Germany, Spain , Italy they have big numbers of personel but lack political or military balls .

http://www.nato.int/isaf/docu/epub/pdf/isaf_placemat_081201.pdf

PB, I really like you, but I am sick and tired of these very uninformed and ignorant (I am not saying you are ignorant, I have too much respect for you to say that) posts in this regard.

You need to learn something about the laws in some of the nations, the constitutions in these nations and why these laws and consitutions are in place (especially which countries i.e. England, USA, France, Russia... all require some of these countries to have these laws and consitutions) before you make such stupid comments.

Sorry pB. Like I said, I have nothing but respect for you and think you are a great member of this forum, but these posts from you are getting real tiresome...

It is rather obvious to me that you do not know anything about why this is the case. You just spout off and do not care to learn why. It has been repeated to you on many occasions. You choose not to learn why, or you do not care. Pretty sad if you ask me.

I also find it very very insulting to anyone who wears the uniform (I do not care what country) and is serving and risking thier life in Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[pbfoot]

I've stated this several times > The US screwed the pooch in attacking Iraq while leaving Afghanistan unfinished .
I understand casualties are to be expected some one should inform the Germans , Belgians , Spanish and Italians and maybe if everyone pulled their weight we wouldn't be in this predicament

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I understand casualties are to be expected some one should inform the Germans , Belgians , Spanish and Italians and maybe if everyone pulled their weight we wouldn't be in this predicament

There you go again. Did you not read my post? You need to do some research on why things are this way instead of spouting off your mouth.

I am getting really tired of this...

 

[pbfoot]

so am I

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I've stated this several times > The US screwed the pooch in attacking Iraq while leaving Afghanistan unfinished .
I understand casualties are to be expected some one should inform the Germans , Belgians , Spanish and Italians and maybe if everyone pulled their weight we wouldn't be in this predicament

Afghanistan was NEVER left unfinished - from the beginning it was stated than when the Taliban was removed from power an occupation was going to take years before the Afghan people could form a government that would not sanction radical Islamic terrorists within their borders and allow those same terrorists to export their campaign.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

so am I

Then do not bring that crap up again...