Comparative Study of B-17 vs B-24

True But your only going against

1. Guns on the side of the defending aircraft facing you.
2. Those who see you in time.
3. Those that are in position to track you.
4. At 500 mph your in range what 2 seconds, 3 to 4 on a side attack and a minute on a rear attack. This means any particular gun can get (the most possible) anywhere from 600 rounds in a rear attack to 20 rounds in a frontal attack, maximum.
5. Each gun only carried around 750 rounds, so short 3/4 round bursts are used.
6. Divided by the number of attacking aircraft.

The reality is that a good frontal attack may only face 50 rounds half of which aren't even aimed at all. With 25 aimed rounds at a speed differental of 500+ mph - its amazing any hits were made at all!

wmaxt

FLYBOYJ said:

Something I remembered....

My uncle was a B-24 bombardier. He started out training as a flight engineer. He once told me that the B-24 had a bunch of fuel lines and valves located in the bomb-bay that leaked on occasion and sometimes filled the Bomb-bays up with fumes. At one point it was SOP to take off and land with the Bomb-bays cracked open. I don't have a B-24 fuel systems schematic to confirm this but has anyone else heard or read about this? My uncle told me that many B-24s would ignite in the air for no apparent reason!

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Yes, it was true about the center fuel cell and associated fuel lines. This was a problem that plagued the B24 all of its operational life. Its also the reason some of the most spectacular photo's of WW2 of planes burning up in mid-air were of B24's. One hit by flak or cannon fire could easily torch the fuel cell.

wmaxt said:

True But your only going against

1. Guns on the side of the defending aircraft facing you.
2. Those who see you in time.
3. Those that are in position to track you.
4. At 500 mph your in range what 2 seconds, 3 to 4 on a side attack and a minute on a rear attack. This means any particular gun can get (the most possible) anywhere from 600 rounds in a rear attack to 20 rounds in a frontal attack, maximum.
5. Each gun only carried around 750 rounds, so short 3/4 round bursts are used.
6. Divided by the number of attacking aircraft.

The reality is that a good frontal attack may only face 50 rounds half of which aren't even aimed at all. With 25 aimed rounds at a speed differental of 500+ mph - its amazing any hits were made at all!

wmaxt

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As true as that may be, I doubt that any Luftwaffe pilots were able to calm themselves with an explanation like that.

Aggie08 said:

As true as that may be, I doubt that any Luftwaffe pilots were able to calm themselves with an explanation like that.

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No Doubt. The bombers did get more than a few though I don't really belive the 6,086 the AAF claimed.

wmaxt

most probably a 1/3rd of the figure if not far less...........every Fw 190 with poor fuels as it split S'd, drug out carbon from the engine causing them to smoke so it appeared a confirmed downing to the heavies gunners

Erich said:

most probably a 1/3rd of the figure if not far less...........every Fw 190 with poor fuels as it split S'd, drug out carbon from the engine causing them to smoke so it appeared a confirmed downing to the heavies gunners

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True, plus with several people shooting from several angles, kills were often awarded to more than one gunner. Lastly if the number was higher it helped morale in that the gunners felt they had more influence in their own safety.

wmaxt

Erich said:

most probably a 1/3rd of the figure if not far less...........every Fw 190 with poor fuels as it split S'd, drug out carbon from the engine causing them to smoke so it appeared a confirmed downing to the heavies gunners

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Not just the BMWs but also the DBs. From what I have read it was a favourite tactic during BoB by 109 pilots to produce lots of black exhaust by throttle manipulation so the attacking Spit or Hurrie would break off the persuit, thinking the 109 was a goner.

even the Bf 110G-2's did it as well when they banked away from the US bombers. it was a horror to set up attacks from the front by staffels, then plow through the formations and hopeful you and your buddies would come out the rear of the formation with all your digits just to be in the wrong place as Allied escorts dived upon you

One only has to look for pictures of battle damaged B-17's and B-24's that made it home to see which was the tougher plane. Yes the MK108's could kill either plane, but the B-17 was more likely to survive such an attack. The B-24 was much more likey to succumb to less than instant killing damage on the way home than the B-17, especially the damage caused by flak.

The B-24 had the range advantage, and a minimal speed advantage, the B-17 could fly higher. So each was suited for different types of missions, though often they were used for the same types of missions. IIRC the big weak point of the B-24 was at the wing root - it could not take much damage between the inboard engine and the fuselage on the wing before the wing would fail catastrophically usually resulting in loss of the entire crew.

As for the guns, well IMO I think they'd have done better to eliminate all the fixed possition guns and go with the four turrets alone. On the B-17 (G) this would have meant the chin, top, belly, and tail turrets. Arguably the chin turret could have been removed as well - attacking fighters comming from the front were nearly impossible to hit anyway. Eliminating these other positions would have reduced the weight of the plane by over 1000 lbs (including reduction of crew) or perhaps 1500+ lbs if the chin turret were removed. This would have noticably increased the speed of the plane.

One of the big advantages of the B-24 was its bomb capacity. The B-17 bombay was rather cramped and did not allow for a large variety of internal bomb configurations. I believe the maximum bombload was 8 x 1000 lbs bombs, and these had to have the small fins which reduced accuracy. Going down to 500 lbs bombs, only 6 could be carried. The B-24's bombay was more versitile allowing more payload to be carried and more flexability in the configuration. For many target types, more smaller bombs were better. This was especailly true in the PTO where targets tended not to be as hardened.

Another factor was the B-24 was eaiser to build. The B-17 was designed well before the war and production shortcuts were not really built into the design. The B-24 design was brought online during the war and much more thought was given to how to build them quickly.

And yes, the B-24 did drop more tonnage than the B-17. But there were more B-24's so to get a good comparison it'd have to be indexed to number of sorties flown.

I believe the B-24 dropped most of its bombs in the Med and in the Pacific. Could this have anything to do with the fact that it coudl not take as much damage as the B-17?

it's proberly more to do with the -24's superior range.........

it did not matter towhom the Luftwaffe was attacking during 44, the forward attacks by staffels was more in jeopardy due to the forward height issue than a rear attck from slightly below. If the agressor was there whther 1-2 Sturm Fw's or 109G's either bomber was going to go down. Was just given some new materials on the 3cm rounds, the four that did just nasty work. One blue colored cartridge fiend, once entering through the aluminum skin would top explode like a Roman candle it was put burning everything it could touch besides sending shardes of steel fragments in every direction

The B24's range advantage in the pacific was critical. In 1943, the 380th BG went on a few mission that were 1600 miles one way, a 3200 mile round trip. The B17 could not do that.

Plus the Japanese defenses were far less dangerous than the Germans. That offset the B24's less battle worthyness compared to the B17.

I dont know if I would go as to say the Japanese defenses were far less dangerous than the Germans. The Germans may have had a better Anti Aircraft network set up but I would not go as far as to say less dangerous.

trouble brewing several thousand feet behind the US Pulk.

SturmFw's with the 4 rounds that I briefly mentioned, the 5th on the right a practice round. the first two rounds, blue was a single with 4 of the regular yellow bodied M rounds in a belt

Cool, good stuff.

Erich said:

trouble brewing several thousand feet behind the US Pulk.

SturmFw's with the 4 rounds that I briefly mentioned, the 5th on the right a practice round. the first two rounds, blue was a single with 4 of the regular yellow bodied M rounds in a belt

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Are you sure that blue round is not the hydrostatically fused incendairy?

Rounds 1-3 appear to be Ausf. A's, where 4 5 are Ausf. C's ???

Lune I had thought similiar ideas and even # 4 is an Incendiary round. there are actually something like 8 rounds used not counting practice and will have to dig in my binder for the 2 inch thick stuff just on the mk 108 rounds. will list them again as I did previously about a year or more ago. I'll get this straightened out.

For kommando Welter the change was 4 rounds of yellow bodied Minengeschoss to 1 round night incendiary which had the more streamlined body, but again for exactness I will further my investigation ..... for Mossie hgunting they found that by using just two mk 108's there was sufficient carnage to take the twin engine down and even then with the speed of the 262 behind they always ran through the debris which was a total pisser when they landed as Kurt Welter would always do a walk aropund with the pilot after the mission and if there was any external damage to any visible part Kurt would let go his fury. He was even hard on himself and ........... oh wait I am giving away details from our book ....

dang I am running......

yellow body ~ Minen/HE Shell
Blue body, Brandgeschoss ~ Incendiary Shell

yellow body with red ring ~ shell with tracer

yellow body with dark red ring ~ this has a pointed or slender nose, shell with special night tracer

yellow body with grene ring ~ nasy thing ! shell with self destroying round/fuze

yellow body with blue ring ~ HE/Incendiary shell

grey body ~ exercise shell

more to come

Damn imagine if you got the colors mixed up and could not remember what was what!