Consolidated C-87 Liberator Transport

CATCH 22 · Apr 21, 2019

nuuumannn said:
I've noticed that the transports don't have nose undercarriage doors, except the one in post #16, although it looks like a bomber conversion.

They do - the doors open inwards though. This was the original design of the bombers as well - check photos of Consolidated-built B-24D for example. When B-24 has been manufactured in many factories at the same time, this design changed. IMHO the Ford-manufactured B-24 were the first ones with outward opening wheel-well doors. Later on, all factories (Consolidated incl.) adopted this change.

The RY-3 which is a late Consolidated-built transport has the same doors:

On the other hand Commando AL 504 e.g. is an earlier Liberator II and has the inward opening doors

nuuumannn · Apr 23, 2019

CATCH 22 said:
They do - the doors open inwards though.

You mean they fold up into the wheel well and fold out once the wheel is retracted? Explain their geometry, because in the picture in post #16 it doesn't look like there are doors at all. Having looked at wartime pics of B-24Ds, I see the similarities, but could you explain how they work? Are they on rails?

Crimea_River · Apr 23, 2019

A quote from the book "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest K. Gann:

The C-87 "was a ground loving bitch, and with heavy loads it rolled, snorted, and porpoised interminably before exerting its questionable right to fly."

CATCH 22 · Apr 23, 2019

nuuumannn said:
You mean they fold up into the wheel well and fold out once the wheel is retracted? Explain their geometry, because in the picture in post #16 it doesn't look like there are doors at all. Having looked at wartime pics of B-24Ds, I see the similarities, but could you explain how they work? Are they on rails?

I had a photo of the wheel well with inward opening doors - I'll try to find it. The doors kind of slide to the side. One of the existing restored B-24D has the same mechanism - the "Strawberry Bitch". She's in Dayton, Ohio.

If you find a good walk around, there might be some details.
BTW this is a photo of the 2 type of doors: the one to the left is an inward opening door:

P.S. I checked the site of the National Museum of USAF in Dayton. They have several virtual tours in the planes, Strawberry Bitch incl. - check here:
Consolidated B-24D Liberator > National Museum of the US Air Force™ > Display
If you go to the Bombardier's station
World War II Gallery Cockpits
You can see the inward opened doors from many angles. This is probably the best visualization one can find, without visiting the museum.

Cheers!

nuuumannn · Apr 23, 2019

CATCH 22 said:
You can see the inward opened doors from many angles. This is probably the best visualization one can find, without visiting the museum.

Excellent Catch22! That was exactly what I wanted to know! Thanks for that. I couldn't get my head round how it would work unless the doors slid into place exactly as I thought they might do; as they appear in the above image. I thought that they couldn't fold inwards because they would hit the wheel on their way in and thought that they would have to slide to sit against the inner wall of the bay, just as they do.

I've been to the USAF Museum at Dayton many years ago and remember seeing the B-24 and all this time I had never considered that from the D model earlier the type's nose gear doors differed from later variants. According to a book I have the doors changed to their more familiar type from the B-24H onwards. The following is from a B-24 walkaround that I've done.

B-24 nose gear doors

CATCH 22 · Apr 23, 2019

nuuumannn said:
….According to a book I have the doors changed to their more familiar type from the B-24H onwards....

I think I mentioned this before, AFAIK Ford (Willow Run) first started with the outward opening doors on their D-models. Check this photo with an old D (inward opening doors) in the back and a new D and H in the front. All 3 a/cs are from the Ford production line.

nuuumannn · Apr 23, 2019

Yes, you mentioned the Ford production line, but I wasn't aware that they made the changes to D model B-24s from the same source - another correction to add to a printed source I have! Learning lots from this, thanks man.

CATCH 22 · Apr 23, 2019

You are welcome!
I learned these details some 10, maybe 12 years ago, when comparing photos of the B-24D's participating in the first Ploesti raid. Almost all photos show a/cs with inward opening doors. This caught my attention. At that time the USAAF-forum was still active and some of the members were real B-24 - specialists.
I'm happy to share anything I've learned before and learn new things as well.
BTW there are late models with inward opening doors too:

"Hells Belle" is a Consolidated manufactured B-24J from block 175! One will be only surprised to find, how much did the Liberators differ one from another.
Cheers!

nuuumannn · Apr 23, 2019

CATCH 22 said:
One will be only surprised to find, how much did the Liberators differ one from another.

See! Its interesting wee snippets like this that make this forum, and our subject matter overall all the more enjoyable! Again, thanks.

Wurger · Apr 24, 2019

T Bolt · Apr 24, 2019

nuuumannn said:
I've noticed that the transports don't have nose undercarriage doors, except the one in post #16, although it looks like a bomber conversion.

The Bomber models up thru the B-24E (greenhouse nose) had nose gear doors that opened in. When they started with the turret nose models the doors were made to open out to free up room onside the nose. You can spot the B-24D's that had nose turrets added at modification centers by the lack of exterior nose gear doors. My guess is that those C-87's were taken from a B-24D production run and completed as C-87s.

Niceoldguy58 · Apr 25, 2019

I thought I might clear up some of the apparent misunderstandings about nose-turreted B-24s, nose gear doors, etc.

All production B-24D's and E's were glassnoses and had the nose gear doors cycling inward when the nose gear came down. That is also true of the C-87 mods. This also appears to be the case with the nose-turreted B-24G-1's, but only five of those were built.

All B-24J-COs up through Block 40-CF aircraft had the Consolidated Turret and thus the doors retracted inward. The J-401-CF was actually the last of the Ford-built/Consolidated Fort Worth assembled H's and were assembled alongside CF's produced J's. With the switch to the Emerson nose turret from the Consolidated, the doors opened outward due to additional equipment added to the nosewheel interior. All Consolidated J-CO's had the inward-retracting doors up through the J-180-CO. Beginning with the J-185-CO and all subsequent the Emerson was carried and doors opened outward. This would include the B-24 shown in response #16. I don't see cargo doors indicated on that aircraft so am unsure just what the heck it is at this point. There are B-29's in the background so it could conceivably be a late-war Pacific weather bird or some kind of snooper/ferret/etc.

All B-24G's from Block five through the end of North American production had the outward doors. All H's and subsequent Fords had Emerson's and thus the outward-opening doors.

All Douglas-assembled Ford Knockdown J-DT kits also had the Emerson and thus the outward-opening doors.

N1503 is a modified LB-30 to which a longer RY-3 nose appears to have been fitted during the post-war mod. Originally this aircraft was AM927.

Just as a note, the C-109's were all Fords and had the outward-opening doors IIRC.

There were a very, very few armed C-87's, but I'm saving those for Vol. III of Consolidated Mess.

I hope the above is of interest.

AlanG

P-39 Expert · Apr 26, 2019

comiso90 said:
Not something you see very often...

Burma Theater needs more coverage too

thanks

Dad served in Burma in WWII.

John D. Voss · Apr 26, 2019

A great photo set of the C-87 Liberator Express. IIRC, Consolidated constructed about 300 of the type and to my knowledge there are no remaining examples. The Douglas C-54 Skymaster replaced them all.

Gnomey · Apr 28, 2019

Good shots!

John D. Voss · Apr 29, 2019

As a point of interest the RAF received 24 C-87-CF aircraft. Some of these ended up post-war with BOAC for its long range passenger / cargo services.

Ole Bill · Apr 30, 2019

Snautzer01 said:
Consolidated C-87 Liberator Express in flight 8"x 10" World War II Photo 228 | eBay

View attachment 535679

Niceoldguy58 said:
I thought I might clear up some of the apparent misunderstandings about nose-turreted B-24s, nose gear doors, etc.

All production B-24D's and E's were glassnoses and had the nose gear doors cycling inward when the nose gear came down. That is also true of the C-87 mods. This also appears to be the case with the nose-turreted B-24G-1's, but only five of those were built.

All B-24J-COs up through Block 40-CF aircraft had the Consolidated Turret and thus the doors retracted inward. The J-401-CF was actually the last of the Ford-built/Consolidated Fort Worth assembled H's and were assembled alongside CF's produced J's. With the switch to the Emerson nose turret from the Consolidated, the doors opened outward due to additional equipment added to the nosewheel interior. All Consolidated J-CO's had the inward-retracting doors up through the J-180-CO. Beginning with the J-185-CO and all subsequent the Emerson was carried and doors opened outward. This would include the B-24 shown in response #16. I don't see cargo doors indicated on that aircraft so am unsure just what the heck it is at this point. There are B-29's in the background so it could conceivably be a late-war Pacific weather bird or some kind of snooper/ferret/etc.

All B-24G's from Block five through the end of North American production had the outward doors. All H's and subsequent Fords had Emerson's and thus the outward-opening doors.

All Douglas-assembled Ford Knockdown J-DT kits also had the Emerson and thus the outward-opening doors.

N1503 is a modified LB-30 to which a longer RY-3 nose appears to have been fitted during the post-war mod. Originally this aircraft was AM927.

Just as a note, the C-109's were all Fords and had the outward-opening doors IIRC.

There were a very, very few armed C-87's, but I'm saving those for Vol. III of Consolidated Mess.

I hope the above is of interest.

AlanG

I've always heard that the 'B-24' operated by the 'Confederate AF'... "Diamond Lil" is actually a C-87

fubar57 · Apr 30, 2019

Warbird Tech says "Diamond Lil, the often altered LB-30B (assigned RAF number AM927).............."

Snautzer01 · May 18, 2019

1944 Consolidated C-87 Liberator Transport AL613 B-24 Conversion Original Photo | eBay

Wurger · May 18, 2019

Consolidated C-87 Liberator Transport

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