Consolidated PBY vs. Heinkel He-115

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by V-1710, Aug 10, 2006.

  1. V-1710

    V-1710 Member

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    O.K., one is a floatplane, the other is a flying boat, but they were designed for roughly the same mission. Compare and contrast.
     
  2. davparlr

    davparlr Well-Known Member

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    The PBY is a classic of seaplanes and basically defines the WWII versions. It was like the Sherman tank, cheap, available, and good enough to get the job done in quantity. From spotting the Bismark to guadalcanal and Midway and to antisubmarine warfare, it, and the men who flew them were real warhorses.

    For comparison purposes, the PBY-4 and the He 115A-3 (I only have data on the B-1) were both available at the start of the war in Europe. The PBY had a higher top speed (197mph to 189mph) but significantly slower cruising speed (115mph to 183mph). Payload was roughly the same. Where the PBY excelled was in cruising range (2070 miles normal to 740, and 4430 miles max to 1830 miles). The range was significant for this mission, especially in the Pacific, not so much so in Europe (except in the Atlantic).

    Both planes could have been superseded in a year or two by much superior aircraft such as the P4Y and PBM. Only they weren't needed, the PBY was doing its job.

    For range, durability, and time of service, I would select the PBY.
     
  3. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

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    I don't think they are even comparable the PBY all the way
     
  4. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    I think both aircraft were great designs and served well in there assigned roles but I go for the PBY as well.

    A more interesting comparison would be the PBY vs. Do-18, Do-24, and Do-26.

    Do-18

    Type: Reconnaissance and Air/Sea rescue
    Origin: Dornier-Werke GmbH
    Models: D, G, H, N
    Crew: Four
    First Flight:
    Do 18a: March 15, 1935
    Do 18F: June 11, 1937
    Do 18L: November 21, 1939
    Service Delivery: September 1938
    Final Delivery: 1940
    Production: 100+

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Engine:
    Do 18D:
    Model: Junkers Jumo 205C
    Type: diesels in tandem push/pull configuration
    Number: Two Horsepower: 600 hp

    Do 18G, H N:
    Model: Junkers Jumo 205D
    Type: diesels in tandem push/pull configuration
    Number: Two Horsepower: 700 hp

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dimensions:
    Wing span: 23.7m (77 ft. 9 in.)
    Wing Surface Area: 1054.89 sq. ft (98.00m²)
    Length: 19.25m (63 ft. 2 in.)
    Height: 5.45m (17 ft. 9 in.)

    Weights:
    Empty: 5,850kg (12,900 lbs.)
    Loaded: 10,000kg (22,046 lbs.)
    Performance:
    Maximum Speed: 162 mph (260 kph) at sea level
    Cruise Speed: 106 mph (170 kph)
    Range: 2,175 miles (3,500km)
    Initial Climb: N/A
    Service Ceiling: 13,780 ft. (4200m)

    Armament:
    Do 18D-1:
    Two 7.92mm MG 15 machine guns manually aimed, one mounted in the bow and one mounted in the rear cockpit.

    Do 18G-1:
    One 13mm MG 131 in bow cockpit
    One 20mm MG 151 in powered dorsal turret

    Do 18H and N: Unarmed

    Payload:
    Do 18D-1 Do 18G-1:
    1,000kg (2,204 lbs.) of weapons or stores mounted on wing racks.

    Do-24

    Type: Reconnaissance flying boat
    Origin: Dornier-Werke GmbH, production by wesser, Aviolanda and Potez-CAMS (SNCAN); post-war, CASA, Spain.
    Models: N and T
    First Flight: Do 24V3: July 3, 1937
    Service Delivery: Do 24K: November 1937
    Withdrawal From Service: Spain: 1967
    Production: N/A

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Engine:
    Model: Bramo Fafnir 323R-2
    Type: Nine-cylinder radials
    Number: Three Horsepower: 1,000hp

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dimensions:
    Wing span: 27m (88 ft. 7 in.)
    Wing Surface Area: 1,162.5 sq. ft. (108.00m²)
    Length: 22m (72 ft. 1 in.)
    Height: 5.45m (17 ft. 10 in.)

    Weights:
    Empty: 13,500kg (29,700 lbs.)
    Loaded: 18,400kg (40,565 lbs

    Performance:
    Maximum Speed: 211 mph (340 kph) at 9,840 ft. (3000m)
    Cruise Speed: 183 mph (295 kph)
    Range: 2,950 miles (4750km)
    Initial Climb: N/A
    Endurance: N/A
    Service Ceiling: 19,360 ft. (5900m)

    Armament:
    One 7.92mm MG 15 machine gun in bow turret, one MG 15 in tail turret and one 20mm MG 151/20 or 30mm MK 103 cannon in dorsal turret behind wing.

    Bomb Load:
    Underwing racks for twelve 110lb. (50kg) bombs or other stores.



    Do-26

    Type: Transatlantic Mail or Coastal Patrol flying boat
    Origin: Dornier-Werke GmbH.
    Models: V1 to V6, and D
    First Flight: May 21, 1938
    Service Delivery: 1940
    Final Delivery: N/A
    Crew: Four

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Engine:
    Do 26V6:
    Model: Junkers Jumo 205D Diesels
    Type: Each with six double-ended cylinders
    and 12 opposed pistons
    Number: Four Horsepower: 880 hp

    Do 26A:
    Model: Junkers Jumo 205 Diesels
    Type: Each with six double-ended cylinders
    and 12 opposed pistons
    Number: Four Horsepower: 600 hp

    Do 26D:
    Model: Junkers Jumo 205Ea Diesels
    Type: Each with six double-ended cylinders
    and 12 opposed pistons
    Number: Four Horsepower: 700 hp

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dimensions:
    Wing span: 30m (98 ft. 5¼ in.)
    Wing Surface Area: 120.0m² (1,291 sq. ft.)
    Length: 24.60m (80 ft. 8½ in.)
    Height: 6.85m (22 ft. 5¾ in.)
    Weights:
    Empty:
    Do 26V6: 11,300kg (24,912 lbs.)
    Do 26A: 10,700kg (23,589 lbs.)
    Loaded:
    Do 26V6: 22,500kg (49,601 lbs.)
    Do 26A: 20,000kg (44,092 lbs.)

    Performance:
    Maximum Speed: 201 mph (324 kph)
    Cruise Speed: N/A
    Range: 7100 km (4,412 miles)
    Initial Climb: N/A
    Endurance: N/A
    Service Ceiling: N/A

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Armament:
    20mm MG 151 in a bow turret
    Three aft firing 7.92mm MG 15 machine guns.

    Payload:
    12 Fully-Equipped troops

    PBY

    Type: Maritime Patrol Flying Boat
    Origin: Consolidated
    Models: PBY-1 to PBY-5A (Specs for 5A)
    Crew: Seven
    First Flight: XP3Y-1: March 21, 1935
    Service Delivery: PBY-1: October 1936
    Final Delivery: After December 1945
    Production: 4,000+

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Powerplant:
    Model: Pratt Whitney R-1830-92 Twin Wasp
    Type: 14-cylinder twin row radial engine
    Number: Two
    Horsepower: 1,200 hp
    Dimensions:
    Wing Span: 31.72m (104 ft.)
    Length: 19.5m (63 ft. 11 in.)
    Height: 5.65m (18 ft. 10 in.)
    Wing Area: N/A

    Weights:
    Empty: 7974 kg (17,465 lb)
    Maximum: 15,436 kg (34,000 lb)

    Performance:
    Max. Speed: 314 km/h (196 mph)
    Climb to 5,000 ft (1525m): 4.5 minutes
    Service Ceiling: 5550m (18,200 ft.)
    Range at 100 mph (161 kph): 4960 km (3,100 miles)

    Armament:
    U.S. Navy Configuration: (Typical)
    Nose turret with either 0.3 or 0.5 in. Browning MG
    One 0.5 in. Browning MG in each waist blister
    One 0.5 in. Browning MG in tunnel in underside behind step

    RAF Configuration: (Typical)*
    Nose turret with one 0.303 Vickers K MG
    Two 0.303 Vickers K MG in each waist blister
    One 0.303 Vickers K MG in tunnel in underside behind step
    *Vickers K sometimes replaced with Browning MG

    Bomb Load:
    2000 lb (907 kg) of stores on wing racks


    Based off of this info the Do-24 and Do-26 were superior to the PBY in most respects. The Do-24 was also the most beautiful as well. They had one flying around here the other day. It was painted in silver and owned by some Czech company. I wish I could have taken a picture of it.

    Dornier made mostly flying boats and was a real expert at it.
     

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  5. davparlr

    davparlr Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if I have told this before, but one day I heard a airplane flying that sounded unusual. I ran out side and a Do-24 was flying low overhead heading for San Pedro to land. It was a UN bird. You are right about it being beautiful. Very graceful. I could imagine an old China Clipper flying overhead.

    One of the first memories of an air show I have was of a PBY rolling down the runway and then leaping off in a column of smoke as it lit off two JATO boosters.

    The PBY was obsolete at the beginning of the war but still soldiered on.

    I agree with you on the Do 24 and 26. The Do 26 was clearly superior, the Do 24 was only marginally so.
     
  6. Twitch

    Twitch Member

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    Well gee, my reference materials show the PBY-5A with a tope end of only 169 MPH @ sea level and 179 MPH @ 7,000 feet. Range is 2,545 miles.

    The He 115B-1 could do 186 MPH @ sea level and 203 MPH @11,150 feet with a range of 2,080 miles. The later 115D of 1941 could do 248 MPH with its 1,600 HP BMWs.

    Total ordnance loads were about 4,000 lbs for the Cat and around 3,000 lbs for the Heinkel.

    A brief review of the 115's use shows it was quite adequate in its role and we know the Catalina was. I feel it isn't all about maximum range and ordnance load but whether each successfully carried out its missions and both craft did. So it's a tie in that area for me.

    I'd simply give the nod to the Cat for the fact of sentimentality and that its far flung use was legendary plus 2,398 were built versus some 273 He 115s.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Parmigiano

    Parmigiano Member

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    I did bot bothered to compare performances, but in terms of beauty...



    Nome / Name Fiat CMASA Rs. 14




    Carattestistiche/ Type Idrovolante monoplano bimotore bombardamento / ricognizione
    Anno di Costruzione Year of constr. 1939
    Primo Volo/ First flight maggio 1939 pilota Ferdinando Trojano
    Progettista/ Eng. Ing. manlio Stiavelli Ing. Lucio lazzarino
    Equipaggio n. /Crew 4-5
    Ap. Alare / mt. Span wings 19,54
    Lunghezza/ mt. Lenght 14,10
    Altezza/ mt. Height 5,63
    Sup. Alare mq / Wing area 50,00
    Motore -i / Power Plant-s 2 Fiat A.74 RC38 da 840cv ciascuno a 3800mt.
    Peso max / Max weight 8470 kg.
    Peso a secco / Empty weight 5470 kg.
    Carico utile / Loaded weights 400 kg di bombe
    Armamento / Armament 1 mitr. da 12,7 mm + 2 mitr. da 7,7mm
    Vel. max/ Max speed 390 km/h a 4000mt.
    Tangenza prat. / 6300 mt ( max)
    Autonomia / Range 2500 km
    Produzione / Production circa 184 esemplari
    Varianti / Special Type Fiat AS. 14 con carrello retrattile e 6 mitragliatrici da 12,7 mm + cannone da 37mm
    Note / note: Matricole Militari : MM380-383 ( 1° E 2° prototipo) / MM35386-35397 n.12 / MM35401-35422 n.22 / MM35639-35788 n.150






    fiat_RS14_b.jpg

    rs14.jpg

    mm_48001_instructions_top_b.gif
     
  8. k9kiwi

    k9kiwi Member

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    I would pick the PBY, but I am biased.

    We live on the coast about 20 km from the New Zealand Warbirds base at Ardmore airport.

    Dakato, P-51, P40N, Harvards, Spitfire, BAC Strikemaster, And the PBY all flap their wings overhead and use the air in front of us for practice most weekends.

    Watching the PBY come crawling along you get the distinct feeling that the crew could get out and walk along side to stretch their legs.

    But the real gotcha is listening to the P-40 go past, sounds ok. THEN you hear the growl start, and grow, and the Merlin powered P-51 honks past, bloody awesome.

    But that PBY just hanging there, is stunning.
     
  9. Wildcat

    Wildcat Well-Known Member

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    Yup, PBY all the way.
     
  10. V-1710

    V-1710 Member

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    I don't think the Germans were ever in a position to really utilize a large seaplane, outside of the search and rescue role. The Catalina was well suited for search and rescue, long range patrol, night attack, sub hunting, mine laying, and surface vessel attack. Yes, it was slow, but it was also strong and had a very long range (even longer with one engine shut down!). The Dornier's were very impressive indeed, but most could not match the PBY's range (the Do 26 comes very close to the non-amphibious PBY). If anything came close to the PBY's equal, it might have been one of the Cant designs.
     
  11. Smokey

    Smokey Member

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    H6k

    Theres also the Kawanishi H6K Mavis

    Role Patrol flying boat
    Crew 9
    First Flight July 14 1936
    Entered Service January 1938
    Manufacturer Kawanishi
    Dimensions
    Length 25.63 m 84 ft 3 in
    Wingspan 40.00 m 131 ft 2 in
    Height 6.27 m 20 ft 6 in
    Wing area 170 m² 1,830 ft²
    Weights
    Empty 11,707 kg 25,755 lb
    Loaded 17,000 kg 37,400 lb
    Maximum takeoff 21,500 kg 47,300 lb
    Powerplant
    Engines 4x Mitsubishi Kinsei 43 or 46
    Power 2,984 kW 4,000 hp
    Performance
    Maximum speed 331 km/h 207 mph
    Combat Range 4,650 km 2,906 miles
    Ferry Range 6,580 km 4,112 miles
    Service ceiling 9,610 m 31,520 ft
    Rate of climb 370 m/min 1,213 ft/min
    Wing loading 100 kg/m² 20 lb/ft²
    Power/Mass 0.17 kW/kg 0.11 hp/lb
    Avionics
    Armament
    Guns 1x 7.7 mm Type 97 machine gun in bow
    1x Type 97 machine gun in spine
    2x Type 97 machine guns in waist blisters
    1x 20 mm Type 99 cannon in tail turret
    Stores 2x 800 kg (1,760 lb) torpedoes
    or 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) of bombs

    Kawanishi H6K - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     

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  12. daishi12

    daishi12 Member

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    Just throwing another aircraft into the mix, the Short Sunderland :-

    Specifications (Sunderland III)
    Data from Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War II[1]

    General characteristics
    Crew: 8—11 (two pilots, radio operator, navigator, engineer, bomb-aimer, three to five gunners)
    Length: 85 ft 4 in (26.0 m)
    Wingspan: 112 ft 9½ in (34.39 m)
    Height: 32 ft 10½ in (10 m)
    Wing area: 1,487 ft² (138 m²)
    Empty weight: 34,500 lb (15,663 kg)
    Loaded weight: 58,000 lb (26,332 kg)
    Max takeoff weight: lb (kg)
    Powerplant: 4× Bristol Pegasus XVIII nine-cylinder radial engines, 1,065 hp (794 kW) each
    Performance
    Maximum speed: 210 mph (336 km/h) at 6,500 ft (1,980 m)
    Cruise speed: 178 mph (285 km/h) at 5,000 ft (1,525 m)
    Stall speed: 78 mph (125 km/h)
    Range: 1,780 mi (2,848 km)
    Service ceiling: 16,000 ft (4,880 m)
    Rate of climb: 720 ft/min (3.67 m/s)
    Wing loading: 39 lb/ft² (191 kg/m²)
    Power/mass: .018 hp/lb (.030 kW/kg)
    Armament
    8× .303 calibre machine guns
    various munitions, including bombs and depth charges, carried internally and winched out beneath the wings

    (sourced from Wikipedia)
     
  13. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    The only think the Catalina had over the Do-24 was range, otherwise performance and payload went to the Do-24. The Do-26 beat out the Catalina in everything including range.
     
  14. Parmigiano

    Parmigiano Member

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    I think that the discussion expanded a bit, from the PBY vs He115 comparison.

    Italian designs (Cant and Fiat) were conceived for the mediterranean area, where 2500km of patrol range was enough, so the machines could be lighter and faster.
    But for Atlantic or Pacific missions this range was inadequate.

    If long patrol range was requred, then the aircraft must be heavier and (generally speaking) with lower performances.

    The ultimate long range flying boat could be the Emily, that also carried a good defensive armament of 5x20mm plus some 7.7 mg:

    KAWANISHI H8K2 EMILY:
    HTML:
       _____________________   _________________   _______________________
     
       spec                    metric              english
       _____________________   _________________   _______________________
    
       wingspan                38 meters           124 feet 8 inches
       wing area               160 sq_meters       1,722 sq_feet
       length                  28.15 meters        92 feet 4 inches
       height                  9.15 meters         30 feet
    
       empty weight            18,370 kilograms    40,520 pounds
       normal loaded weight    24,500 kilograms    54,010 pounds
       max loaded weight       32,500 kilograms    71,650 pounds
    
       max speed               465 KPH             290 MPH / 252 KT
       cruise speed            295 KPH             184 MPH / 160 KT
       service ceiling         8,760 meters        28,740 feet
       range                   7,150 kilometers    4,440 MI / 3,865 NMI
       _____________________   _________________   _______________________
    it is anyway a design of a younger generation compared to the PBY

    The point is that after 1943 aircraft design progressed so much that the land based patrol aircraft (the Liberator/Privateer for instance) could take the job without the performance handicap connected to flying boats, making them obsolete.
     
  15. davparlr

    davparlr Well-Known Member

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    My sources agree with this.
     
  16. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    The PBY was reliable, sturdy and for the most part, self contained. The crew was able to perform required maintenance while deployed in forward areas. But it biggest asset, reliability - something that many WW2 flying boats lacked...
     
  17. V-1710

    V-1710 Member

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    I was sort of limiting this discussion to twin engined flying boats/seaplanes. There were many fine 4 engined flying boats, as the Sunderland, 'Emily', PB2Y, and the Martin Mars. How about the PBM Mariner?
     
  18. trackend

    trackend Active Member

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    PBY all the way brilliant design and as FBJ and others have pointed out extremly reliable (very hand when your several hours from home) I love the idea of the drop down wing floats to reduce drag
     

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  19. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    If you want to talk about large multiengine than you have to go with the Emily, Bv-222, Bv-238, PB2Y, PBM, Marlin, Mars, and Sunderland.
     
  20. k9kiwi

    k9kiwi Member

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    Have a search for the night cats "Black Cats" from the pacific theatre.

    or just go here Black Cats - U.S. Navy fighting PBY Catalinas in the Pacific during WWII

    The Japs just LOOOOVED those guys. Couldn't hear them coming, sure as [email protected] new they had been. :twisted:
     
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