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Could the Germans send so many troops to Africa? Could they easy the defenses in Europe?
Many things in this post are speculative but one thing would be quiet sure!
If there is no war in the east the Wehrmacht and LW can concentrate there whole strenghts against GB in 1941 at the Mediterranean (Malta), North Africa, Suez Canal and Arabian Island.
The goal would be the oil at the arabian island.
And if we take the historical strenghts there would be no possibility for GB to defend the Mediterranean (Malta), North Africa, Suez Canal and Arabian Island.
At Barbarossa were 3 Air fleets imagine what will happen if 2 Air Fleets operate at 1941 at the Mediterranean.
Rommel had the 5th and 15th Panzerdividion and roudabout 2 Divisions infantry, imagine what he can do with 10 Divisions 5 tanks 5 infantry!
End of year 1941 the Mediterranean Sea would be totaly free of the Royal Navy and the Wehrmacht would stand at Saudi Arabia.
From 1942/43 there would be massive oil supply for the germans and the italian navy.
And after that it would be very very difficult to make an invasion at North Africa, without the the Azores as big Navy and Aircraft base perhaps unimpossible!
This scenario would happen, if there was no war in the east and after the lost of BoB with GB as the only enemy!
The question is at which date the USA would get in the war?!
We should calculate this in such a scenario!
Which defenses?
Only GB or with the Soviets?
At the end of the france campaign the Wehrmacht had 155 Divisions, at the beginning of Barbarossa 180 Divisions!
At June 1941 the Wehrmacht had 22 tank divisions and 18 mot. infantry divisions.
GB was beaten on the ground at france and they had a professional army, the general conscription was comming slowly.
There was no GB Army that could be dangerous to europe until 1943/44 even with a quick rearmament!
Where do you want to get good/trained soldiers?
And the 10 Divisions for Rommel are nothing without a war in the east!
And the Navy to transport all those troops to Afrika? Italy had? GB would put a lot more of strenght in Africa without the Soviets and with American suppport...
I also belive that if FDR would declare war, he would do it already thinking in Franco and the Middle East. Now that the Germans seems to want the Middle East, this will not be deconsiderated. He would probably let clear to Franco that he would enter in the war. This likely would put Franco out. And Franco would have contact with the US and Britain to stationed troops there in case Hitler showed signs he wanted to invade. Portugal as well.
Sorry Jenisch,
"Yes with the LW Air Fleets at the Mediterranean Sea the Italian could supply 10 Divisions at North Africa, because the royal Navy had only 3 bases in the Mediterranean Sea! Gibralta, Malta and Alexandria! At the open Sea they would be at total mercy of the LW!"
There was no landlease until november/december 1941! Please don't forget this!
" Look at the numbers of Aircrafts at Barbarossa and imagine what will happen if the german could get 2/3 of the numbers in the Mediterranean Sea to fight!"
Hit the freakin nail on the head with this statement. No russia = a much much more dangerous German armed/air forces.
Considerate that with the US at war, the English would reinforce even more their power in Africa.
When?And don't desconsiderate what I already said, the English send almost 1000 planes and tanks to Russia in 1941.
Also, the Germans would not put most of their air fleet over the Mediterranean, they would need a portion of it in France, and another portion for defense against Stalin.
The British also would send even strategic reserves with the American participation certain. The English only need to hold on. As soon as the Americans arrived with carrier and air forces, Hitler would be in trouble. And for last, uncle Joe would not like from this situation, because also would represent a problem to him. He would start to pull some strings to get the Fuher worried.
The Germans would suffer much more casualities. Even because the Germans didn't have so many fighters. And fighters that were necessary for defense. Britain had much more fighters due to the nature of it's war.
Many things in this post are speculative but one thing would be quiet sure!
If there is no war in the east the Wehrmacht and LW can concentrate there whole strenghts against GB in 1941 at the Mediterranean (Malta), North Africa, Suez Canal and Arabian Island.
The goal would be the oil at the arabian island.
And if we take the historical strenghts there would be no possibility for GB to defend the Mediterranean (Malta), North Africa, Suez Canal and Arabian Island.
At Barbarossa were 3 Air fleets imagine what will happen if 2 Air Fleets operate at 1941 at the Mediterranean.
Rommel had the 5th and 15th Panzerdividion and roudabout 2 Divisions infantry, imagine what he can do with 10 Divisions 5 tanks 5 infantry!
.End of year 1941 the Mediterranean Sea would be totaly free of the Royal Navy and the Wehrmacht would stand at Saudi Arabia.
From 1942/43 there would be massive oil supply for the germans and the italian navy
And after that it would be very very difficult to make an invasion at North Africa, without the the Azores as big Navy and Aircraft base perhaps unimpossible!
!This scenario would happen, if there was no war in the east and after the lost of BoB with GB as the only enemy
The question is at which date the USA would get in the war?!
We should calculate this in such a scenario!
Which power? From what?
Sources?
Don't forget there is no war in the east! You said this scenario is without the UDSSR and Japan!
Please make a decission, is this scenario with or without strategic reserves for germany to the UDSSR and USA to Japan?
Or would you realy suggest that the USA would send there carriers to europa with any dangerous from Japan?
You can have this scenario with strategic reserves or without, but please be fare for both sides!
Yes, and then reject it as impractical;
The allies in the Mediterranean:
Air raid on Bari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Much different tatical situation then what was faced in the PTO.
Read the Bari one if you havn't. That would be akin to a US carrier fleet in the Med with NO russians to worry about.
Read the Bari one if you havn't. That would be akin to a US carrier fleet in the Med with NO russians to worry about.
Not a chance. Limitations on the italian merchant marine and the cargo handling capacities of the Libyan ports would prevent that. In 1940 there were limits on the numbers of trained and equipped personnel that could be deployed to the western desert by the british, but by 1941, this equipment crisis was largely passed. There were large numbers of divs deployed to the mideast and the delta that never were committed to the defence in the western desert. For example a corps sized force, known as Oalforce, which in '42 was upgraded to a full army sized formation. then ther were numbers of CW troopps that were retained in the Delta and never committed to the defnce.
But the big restriction was the limit of Italian shipping, the limits on rear area transport, that make projections like this a mere pipedream.
About the maximum force projection the germans could project into Egypt 1940-41 was 5 divs, certainly no more
As far as air deployment to the centrasl basin, the big limitation was airfields....the decision to deploy LW elements to Sicily was made in Octaber, but it was late December before any units could be moved and then only with two wings of the Korps left in France. To deploy two full air fleets would have taken months, if not years to complete, and required major expenditures in airfield construction and major investments in the italian supply train. wasnt going to happen, at least not immediately, and that gives the RAF plenty of time to react
Nice if it were possible. How were the Axis planning to get the oil from the Middle east and Arabia to their home ports, even without interference. The British empire does not end at suez. once suez was lost, the eastern bloc of the CW would have moved to a full war footing, and almost certainly have caused the early entry of the US into the war
But ignores numerous constraints that would prevent it ever coming to fruition