Could the Luftwaffe have done a better job supplying the 6th army at Stallingrad

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I think the Luftwaffe did very well considering the circumstances. I am sure they would have liked more maitenance technicians, more Ju 52 production and more spare engines but they didn't have these. The problem was making the commitment for airlift and then not rescinding it after it had been studied and after several highly respected officers (von Richthoffen) had said the process was impossible.

It seem it was thought that 1500 aircraft would be required to provide 500 sorties per day supplying 500-600 tons. The over supply of aircraft accounts for serviceabillity issues and combat damage. (Ju 52 had several gun stations for a reason, while DC-3 didn't have them for a reason as well).

Since 1500 aircraft and crew were not available it was attempted to shorten the distances involved and use less aircraft (below 500) flying multiple missions with heavier loads, something which would lead to congestion issues and meant the use of vulnerable airfields.

Winter starts could be extremely damaging to the engines and it seems Ju 52 crews arrived from Nth Africa had not been familiarised with cold starting procedures; something which worsened the engine situation.

I would say that if the Luftwaffes procurment program had of been managed better the Luftwaffe could have had more suitable transports.

If the Heinkel He 177 had of been a sucess in Early 1941 (eg as a He 177) production dedicated to FW-200s could have been turned over to transport use from the maritme partrol role.
He 111 and Do 217 production would also be wound back.

The FW 200 is a efficient transport when long distances are involved: it could just about carry 4 tons from Berlin to Stalingrad and almost fly back without refueling. It would fly faster and carry more load per crew member and reduce the need for pilots. The FW 200 had its faults but I would see them as being limmited and of great use in resupply of stalingrad and nth Africa. Due to its larger load capacity fewe trips would be required, therefore reducing congestion.

The Me 210 program was also a disaster that severely disrupted production of many types of aircraft and consumed resources.

Had the He 177 and Me 210 programs gone to schedule the Luftwaffe can likely afford considerably more transports.

The Ju 252 was simply not developing fast enough so the FW 200 would need to do.

An aircraft known as the Ar 232B likely would have provided a big boost in delivery. This aircraft had a STOL capabillity of 200m runway, less than 40% that of the Ju 52. Even a small number would have made a big difference.

In theory, in order to supply 500 tons of cargo using FW 200's some 125 sorties per day are required assuming 4 tons is carried. However in considerating of combat damage, accidents and general wear and tear one would assume at least twice this number are required perhaps 3 times. Some 125 sorties means one aircraft landing every 4 minutes if we assume 8n hours daylight. Ju 52's could only lift that quantity of cargo over very short distances which neccesitates double handling at combat zone airfields.
 
I agree the Me 210/410 was a fine aircraft worthy of production and its worth noting that
the 'fixed versions' were only about 12 months late in entering service and that it was
a good peformer once it was in service.

However the disaster is really that several factories had already begun shutting down production
of types such as the He 111, Me 110 and begun converting to Me 210 when they suddenly had to
revert to either Me 110G or worse the Ju 88. This caused a huge loss in production not only of
Me 210/410 but of other types; moreover the factories weren't set up correctly. It would
have been simple to just keep producing the Me 110 as the Me 110G a little longer, which was a good
performer (370 mph for the Me109G2) and could carry a heavy bomb load a decent range (with drop tanks)
albeit without the internal bomb bay of the Me 210/410 and longer range of the 210/410.

The other production problem the Luftwaffe had was the He 177 but I see no reason that
a 4 engined Jumo 211 version, the so called He 177B couldn't be in problem free by mid 1941, a
few months after Lancaster and Halifax entered service.

This then means FW 200 production become available for transport service and aircraft such as
the He 111 can be removed from the production program.

While the FW 200 may not have been perfect for Stalingrad it was likely to be able to
relieve Ju 52's from supply duty into Nth Africa where its good range would allow it to
deliver a good net cargo.

The problem may have been that although Ernest Heinkel was as suspicious and presicient over the
inadequecies of the DB606 as Roy Chadwick was of the Vulture the political situation with the
engine supplier was different.


Whilst Ernest Hives's Rolls Royce would suffer no loss in sacrificing the RR Vulture in
favour of the RR Merlin, in fact there would be an overall gain given the difficulties
with the engine, he would thus be inclined to argue in favour of abandoning the Vulture.

Daimler Benz (Dr Nallinger) would not be happy to suffer a loss of DB601/606 production in
favour of the competitors Jumo 211 and so would be likely to argue that the DB606 was
worth perservering with or at least not actually want to throw in the towel in
regards their own engine as RR did.
 
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I think the Luftwaffe did very well considering the circumstances. I am sure they would have liked more maitenance technicians, more Ju 52 production and more spare engines but they didn't have these. The problem was making the commitment for airlift and then not rescinding it after it had been studied and after several highly respected officers (von Richthoffen) had said the process was impossible.

A rather similar situation also occurred within the DRG (Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft) when they were discussing the initial logistic planning for Fall Blau. Those in Berlin and those actively involved "out there" with Reichsbahn Ost had widely divergent opinions (as with regards to the ability to meet the anticipated logistic needs for the operation). The difference was that in this case, the folks in Berlin deferred to their "boots on the ground" and were very skeptical about the possibility of delivering the required tonnage that OKW had specified for the operation.

It seem it was thought that 1500 aircraft would be required to provide 500 sorties per day supplying 500-600 tons. The over supply of aircraft accounts for serviceabillity issues and combat damage. (Ju 52 had several gun stations for a reason, while DC-3 didn't have them for a reason as well).

And as I've already pointed out (in an earlier post to this thread), this was over and above the heavy commitments that the Luftwaffe's transport assets in theatre already had.
Since 1500 aircraft and crew were not available it was attempted to shorten the distances involved and use less aircraft (below 500) flying multiple missions with heavier loads, something which would lead to congestion issues and meant the use of vulnerable airfields.


The problem with this was that by pushing the FOB's forward, you just create an additional burden on the available ground transportation assets (which were also straining to meet their commitments). While nowhere near as "troublesome" as the situation in "Panzer Armee Afrika" (where the trucks were burning as much, [or more] fuel as they were delivering to the front at some points: [VanCrevald]), this was still a concern. You must also consider that the same limited number of trucks also had to haul the fuel/spares for the FOB's, in addition to the actual supplies that were supposed to be flown into the "pocket".


Winter starts could be extremely damaging to the engines and it seems Ju 52 crews arrived from Nth Africa had not been familiarised with cold starting procedures; something which worsened the engine situation.

The weather was atrocious throughout most of the effort and had a severe impact on sortie rates. The diesel engines in the Ju 86 were a total nightmare for "der Schwartzemanner" to deal with at -25 C.

I would say that if the Luftwaffes procurment program had of been managed better the Luftwaffe could have had more suitable transports.

If the Heinkel He 177 had of been a sucess in Early 1941 (eg as a He 177) production dedicated to FW-200s could have been turned over to transport use from the maritme partrol role.
He 111 and Do 217 production would also be wound back.

The FW 200 is a efficient transport when long distances are involved: it could just about carry 4 tons from Berlin to Stalingrad and almost fly back without refueling. It would fly faster and carry more load per crew member and reduce the need for pilots. The FW 200 had its faults but I would see them as being limmited and of great use in resupply of stalingrad and nth Africa. Due to its larger load capacity fewe trips would be required, therefore reducing congestion.

I think that the continued production of the (existing) Fw 200 design was a stupid waste of scarce resources; increasing it would have been even worse. The only thing it had in it's favor was the fact that it proved out as a way to utilize production of "Bramo" radials. The machine should have been either redesigned to "milspec" or dropped. The Ju 90 (and it's later developments) showed much more promise for the role. The He 177 was a major fiasco...I'll give you that!

The Me 210 program was also a disaster that severely disrupted production of many types of aircraft and consumed resources.

Had the He 177 and Me 210 programs gone to schedule the Luftwaffe can likely afford considerably more transports.

The Ju 252 was simply not developing fast enough so the FW 200 would need to do.

The Ju 90 was though...terminating "Condor" in favor of He 177B's for the maritime patrol commitment and Ju 90/290 for heavy lift transport would have gone a long way. And yes, I realize that a "beast" like Ju 290 is not going to work on an improvised field right behind the front...they needed real airfields with proper (i.e. engineered, excavated, compacted, length) runways to operate at MTOW.

An aircraft known as the Ar 232B likely would have provided a big boost in delivery. This aircraft had a STOL capabillity of 200m runway, less than 40% that of the Ju 52. Even a small number would have made a big difference.

For "frontal" needs (improvised "airfields" [which is what it was developed for]) it would; for putting serious tonnage down at a proper "airhead", it was not the machine for the job.

In theory, in order to supply 500 tons of cargo using FW 200's some 125 sorties per day are required assuming 4 tons is carried. However in considerating of combat damage, accidents and general wear and tear one would assume at least twice this number are required perhaps 3 times. Some 125 sorties means one aircraft landing every 4 minutes if we assume 8n hours daylight. Ju 52's could only lift that quantity of cargo over very short distances which neccesitates double handling at combat zone airfields.

As to the bolded? "Wear and tear" was the biggest "issue" with the Fw 200. It was a major burden on the limited maintenance resources. It was an early 1930's design and was never designed to be "dropping" onto short airfields with a 4 tonne load. The undercarriage "issues" (and the weak airframe design) are widely acknowledged. While the initial Ju 90 design was no "great shakes" either, the potential was developed throught the period and this effort was largely wasted due (at least in part) to the continued production of the "Condor".

All in all? We are largely in agreement here; I'm not trying to "tear your post apart". On the other hand?

Just felt like providing "another solution" to the problem at hand...

Hindsight is always 20/20
 
All in all? We are largely in agreement here; I'm not trying to "tear your post apart". On the other hand?

Just felt like providing "another solution" to the problem at hand...

Hindsight is always 20/20

In general I'm arguing that the Luftwaffe needed more investment in its transport capacity at all levels. In general the Whermacht also needed more trucks and fuel!

However the crux as I see it is that the Luftwaffe needed more efficient transports. Aircraft that could carry cargo longer distances, in less time, using less fuel per unit delivered and requiring less crew per ton of cargo delivered. I don't see a fundemental problem with the FW 200 as a transport. It was missused as a maritime patrol bomber and due to heavy combate manouvering at low altitude and in rough weather it suffered from fatigue which manifested itself in the heavier landings it experienced in roughter fields. However the airframe and undercarriage could be strenghtened (as it was in the C-0) and again in C3 and the weight increases could be compensated by the growth in Bramo engine performance. It was a younger airframe than the DC-3. I wasn't a perfect aircraft but it was available and could in theory be improved, which is much better than non existant transports such as the Ju 252 or Ju 352

There were only 276 FW 200 produced. They should have been used exclusively as transports, armed ones and this would have been possible had the He 177B been a success and had a little capacity been freed by the Me 210/410 not being so problematic.

The Empty equiped weight of the Bomber version FW 200 C3 was 17000kg and the MTOW 24.5 tons. Fuel capacity was 6000 Litres which at 0.725kg/L means 4350kg of fuel. This leaves room for 2.65 tons of load. IE it could carry 2 tons of load 2200 miles if 650kg allowances for crew and ammunition are made. A version optimised for the pure transport role would offer better performance.

Of course halve the fuel to 3000L and cargo goes up 2.1 tons to 4.1 tons total and range drops to about 1100 miles. The Ju 52 can't even fly that far and if it delivered a cargo 500 miles it would need to refuel at the destination, this effectively limits its opperational radious range to even less: perhaps only 250-300 miles. Air transport is not much use if you need additional rail or land transports to carry fuel to the destination.

I don't know why the Brama 323 radial would be unreliable: it probably relates to the fact that winter start procedures had not been developed. You can't toy with lubrication at -40C.

The Ju 290, while a much better aircraft was also not really a production item till late 1942. This is far too late to set up mass production and in the context of a reliable He 177B also an unneccesary duplication.

The only new transport I could justify would be the Ar 232 due to its STOL and rough field performance as well as rear loading hatch.
 
If Wikipedia is correct the Ju-290 never entered mass production. Only 65 were built so for all practical purposes they should all be considered prototypes. There were also only about 65 Ju-252 / Ju-352 built.

Like the Me-210C, I consider the Ju-252 to be a great missed opportunity for 1942 Germany. The Ju-252 might not be available in numbers great enough to matter at Stalingrad but it would certainly make a difference in Tunisia and various other German air supply operations. Unlike so many other German aircraft programs, there were plenty of engines available for the Ju-252 and Me-210C.
 
If Wikipedia is correct the Ju-290 never entered mass production. Only 65 were built so for all practical purposes they should all be considered prototypes. There were also only about 65 Ju-252 / Ju-352 built.

In Griehls "Luftwaffe over Amerika" Milch is quoted as saying producing the Ju 290 as a 'prototype' was a good idea as there was no need to invest in tooling and jigs which would go out of date anyway. They clearly weren't thinking of mass production in the immediate future.

Like the Me-210C, I consider the Ju-252 to be a great missed opportunity for 1942 Germany. The Ju-252 might not be available in numbers great enough to matter at Stalingrad but it would certainly make a difference in Tunisia and various other German air supply operations. Unlike so many other German aircraft programs, there were plenty of engines available for the Ju-252 and Me-210C.

Certainly the Ju 252 was not a risky aircraft: there were no complicated engines, no difficult remote controlled armament schemes to develop. It was a straightforward aircraft to put into production and it would have provided excellent performance: fast, fuel efficient, long ranged, with heavy lift and turn around capabillity much better than the Ju 52s and modified bombers the Luftwaffe actually used. I'm inclined to think that the a 'tactical transport' such as the Ar 232 might have been a more usefull aircraft given the corners the Whermacht got itself into but then it lacked the range and speed to keep distant Army supplied though it was better than the Ju 52.
 
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I know Messerschmitt was all tooled up to produce the Me-210C before RLM pulled the plug on the program.

Was Junkers tooled up to manufacture the Ju-252 or was it cancelled before production jigs were built?
 
I know Messerschmitt was all tooled up to produce the Me-210C before RLM pulled the plug on the program.

Messerschmitt wasn't just tooled up. The initial decision to "pull the plug" was taken on 9 March '42 but Messerschmitt continued trying to produce the improved version (eventually the Me 410) promising completely unrealistic timetables for completion of the prototypes.
It was only after an inspection of Augsburg by Generalingenieur Roluf Lucht of the RLM on 19 April that the final decision to stop all further work on the Me 210 was taken on 25 April.
At this time 94 aircraft had been completed at Augsburg and 258 at Regensburg. There were a further 540 aircraft at various stages of construction spread across the two plants.
It's hardly surprising that Theo Croneiss,chairman of Messerschmitt AG,entered furious negotiation with Milch and the RLM which,to cut a long story short,resulted in the removal of Prof. Messeschmitt and the eventual production of the Me 410.
Cheers
Steve
 
That doesn't sound right. Development of the Me-210 continued to July 1942 when the perfected Me-210C was tested. Unless Messerschmitt paid to develop the Me-210C from the Me-210A using their own funds.

As for the Me-410, that program was doomed from the start by the DB603 engine shortage. A shortage that was known in advance as both RLM and Messerschmitt knew how many DB603 engines were being produced and how many were required by the various aircraft programs.

14 March 1942. Modified Me-210A. Longer and deeper rear fuselage.
July 1942. Leading edge slots added to wings.
…..Taken together these changes fixed the Me-210 handling problems.
 
Always dangerous cutting a long story short!

9/3/42 the initial decision was taken to terminate the Me 210 program.
Panic at Messeschmitt who had Augsburg,Regensburg and three licence plants set up to produce the Me 210

12/3/42 A meeting is held at the RLM in Berlin and Prof. Messerschmitt concedes that the Me 210 is not ready for operational use. This is when the agreement is made to rebuild the Me 210 with the longer fuselage and slats. Prof. Messerschmitt promised the first of ten prototypes ( German "experimental aircraft") for 1/4/42,an impossible timeline and Messerschmitt knew it. They were desperate to salvage the program. They stood to lose millions. There may have been a war on but business is business.

19/4/42 Milch send Lucht to Augsburg. Lucht reports back on the "desolation" of the Augsburg plant and describes Prof. Messerschmitt as "depressed".

25/4/42 An RLM directive orders all further work on the Me 210 to be stopped.

This is when the Messerschmitt board,and chairman,stepped in to negotiate between Prof. Messerschmitt and the RLM. It must have worked because following a letter of 13/6/42 Messerschmitt (who had continued re-jigging anyway) began work on lengthening 95 fuselages. Regensburg was to deliver 4 in July and 1 in August. Augsburg was to deliver 10 in July/August and then 20 a month from September to December 1942.

I haven't got time now to work out what actually got delivered but in a letter of 4/10/42 Messerschmitt advised the RLM that ten modified Me 210s had been delivered to the Luftwaffe.

The whole debacle is estimated to have cost Messerschmitt RM 38,000,000. Prof. Messerschmitt,whom Milch could barely tolerate,was limited to design and developement only. Croneiss became chairman of the board.

Cheers
Steve
 
Messerschmitt wasn't just tooled up. The initial decision to "pull the plug" was taken on 9 March '42 but Messerschmitt continued trying to produce the improved version (eventually the Me 410) promising completely unrealistic timetables for completion of the prototypes.
It was only after an inspection of Augsburg by Generalingenieur Roluf Lucht of the RLM on 19 April that the final decision to stop all further work on the Me 210 was taken on 25 April.
At this time 94 aircraft had been completed at Augsburg and 258 at Regensburg. There were a further 540 aircraft at various stages of construction spread across the two plants.
It's hardly surprising that Theo Croneiss,chairman of Messerschmitt AG,entered furious negotiation with Milch and the RLM which,to cut a long story short,resulted in the removal of Prof. Messeschmitt and the eventual production of the Me 410.
Cheers
Steve

The Me 410 when equiped with the Neptune R2 tail warning radar was possibly the only Luftwaffe aircraft able to opperated with what approached acceptably low losses (6%) over the British Isles in 1943.
 
Me 410 when equiped with the Neptune R2 tail warning radar was possibly the only Luftwaffe aircraft able to opperated with what approached acceptably low losses (6%) over the British Isles in 1943.
I don't doubt it. However RLM undercutting of the DB603 engine program from 1937 onward ensured there would never be enough for the Do-217 and Me-410 aircraft programs. Not to mention the Fw-190C proposal which was dead on arrival.
 
Change of topic, slightly back on topic....I wonder if the LW would have been any better or worse off, in terms of its transport capability, if, like the Japanese and the Soviets, it had opted to licence produce the DC-3, and had used the Dakota, rather than the Ju-52 as its main operational transport type. Would the LW , for exampe, have suffered a lower attrition rate in the lead up and during the Stalingrad relief effort?
 
".... if, like the Japanese and the Soviets, it had opted to licence produce the DC-3, and had used the Dakota, rather than the Ju-52 as its main operational transport type."

Ironic, isn't it ..... :) but, no. Unless the LW had vast numbers and aircrew to match, the Dakota wouldn't have made a difference, IMHO.

The Berlin Airlift, however, showed the Germans that it could be done. :)

MM
 
I was hoping to get some idea of cold weather performance of the dak. I know that post war the Australian antarctic Service used DC-3s to proviode service to our Antarctic research station. They were preferred over the C-130 because of their good cold weather performance, simplicity and ruggedness. i also believe the DC-3 had better range over a Ju-52, so might have been able to operate further back, where supply issues were far less chaotic. DC-3s generally flew unarmed, but I am thinking the overall performance of the Dakota was better.

The key issue will be serviceability. Can aircraft readiness rates be improved if using a DC-3 over a Ju-52 in these conditions. even if the aircraft have similar reliability and serviceability rates, if the DC-3 can be billetted further back from the forward bases compared to a Ju-52, its going to benefit from a higher servicibility, if nothing else because better maintenance can be undertaken (more hanger space, less congestion at the airfields etc).

I still dont think the DC-3 would be enough to make a difference to the overall result given similar numbers , but if i had 300 DC-3s instead of 300 Ju52s,, it is my opinion that a higher tonnage of supplies would have reached stalingrad.
 
I dont. but the DC-3 is available prewar, and could have been in mass production more or less instead of the Ju52. The Ju252 was however a new type, with all the development costs associated with that. Added to that is the fact that it was a wartime prototype, which adds to the cost and development issues that go with any new type.

in addition, given the rate of output for german transports per annum....about 4-500 units per year, optimistically might expect series production from about the end of 1941 for this type. That means at most you may have 1-200 Ju252s as they are phased into production replacing gradually the Ju52s on the line. if you attempt a rapid replacement faster than that, you are going to end up with less transports overall as production holdups from the forced/rushed service introduction are bound to have an effect on total output. You have to introduce new types gradually and well in advance if you dont want hold ups in delivery rates.

by comparison, a licence built DC-3 can be adopted at least two years earlier, and is an established, proven type with all the kinks ironed out. All it would take, IMo, is for Junkers to re-tool their lines to produce the Dakota rather than the ju52....no development costs, no hold ups, no down time in the mid war as the new type moves to replace the old. all of that happens under peacetime conditions.

Just the same it would be intersting to compare unit costs of the 252 to that of a DC-3. Probably will need to estimate.
 

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