Could the Luftwaffe survive against Allied attacks if the USSR had been defeated?

[syscom3]

The psychological effects on being nuked would have shattered the morale of the populace.

Being bombed by conventional weapons is one thing, being bombed by nukes is another.

 

[KrazyKraut]

That's what they said about the conventional bombs and then the fire bombs. It didn't happen. Unless we are talking about one nuke every few days, in a totalitarian state like Nazi-Germany, the effect would've been loss of life only.

 

[syscom3]

That's what they said about the conventional bombs and then the fire bombs. It didn't happen. Unless we are talking about one nuke every few days, in a totalitarian state like Nazi-Germany, the effect would've been loss of life only.

A military revolt would have ensued after a couple of cities dissapeared.

The Loss of Hamburg and Suttgart (to pick a pair of cities at random) would be an unrecoverable loss, especially if it was timed to coincide with a massive allied ground attack.

Reagrdless of that happening. The LW, even with the help of Russian based fighter units, would still be overwhelmed anywhere they went to. The resources of the allies were so tremendous, that nothing was going to stop the attrition on the LW.

 

[Soren]

Dihedral/anhedral (angle the wing makes with the fuselage, looking from the front: Dihedral-wing tips are higher than the base, anhedral-wing tips are below base (droop) ) has nothing to do with wing twist (twisting of wing to ensure stall occurs first inside ailerons).

You're right confused two things with each other, a brain fart. The He-162 for one used wing droops instead of wing dihedral.

However looking at the Ta-183 there doesn't seem to be any dihedral or anhedral at all.

I don't think the Ta-183 was anywhere near deployment in '45, maybe the end of '46. Too many unknown transonic aero problems and configuration control couplings to fix. In Argentina, Tank and his German design team had a tough time with control and stall problems. I think you are waving a magic wand of German engineering over a very complex and advanced design (like the Horton), and saying everything will work as planned.

I disagree, the German understanding of the transsonic region was pretty good by 45 and completely unrivalled.

Furthermore the Ta-183 project would benefit a lot from German high speed research studies made in 1945, not to mention the planned test flying of the P.1101 prototype.

 

[Soren]

Soren, T-tails are inherantly problematic, though there was an alternate tail design (from design III) which looked more promising.

If used as a platform for the elevator control yes. But the Ta-183 featured elevons, the horizontal stabilizer on top of the tail only being used for trim changes, and thus there wouldn't be the problems with deep stall as that experienced by the Pulqui II.

Furtermore the wing placement on the Ta-183 was entirely different from the Pulqui II and indentical to that of the MIG-15.

 

[delcyros]

A military revolt would have ensued after a couple of cities dissapeared.

The Loss of Hamburg and Suttgart (to pick a pair of cities at random) would be an unrecoverable loss, especially if it was timed to coincide with a massive allied ground attack.

I overlaid the 2000ft. and 1000ft. radius of blast over Hamburg (3rd picture) and it doesn´t even cover the old, 14th century area ofthe city (yellow line), not to speak of ww2 area. All of Hamburg is build from structures comparable to those of Hieroshima, which remained standing. A nuke would just reassemble the debris caused by the various conventional bombing raids that city was subject to. It would -in my opinion- not have the power to wipe out large cities as long as the building structure was NOT WOODEN. Nagasaki and Hiroshima are not very large cities.
Please note also the image taken from Hieroshima at ground zero: The area destruction effect caused by blast and heat effects is remarkable and frightening but The concrete buildings do not show much damage, as a matter of fact, they remain standing (1st picture).

I overlaid historic photographs of Nagasaki before after the bomb with the current google earth picture (see below, 2nd picure). Note that the destructive force reduces greatly at a distance to point zero: At 1000ft. distance, bridges remained standing, at 1500 ft. distance, large factory buildings (no. 17) were heavy damaged but not destroyed.
It would require a nuke with a figure of merit of 60 to 80 compared to that dropped over Nagasaki to wipe out Hamburg.

 

[kool kitty89]

Soren,

But if the (type II) horizontal stabilizer was blanked, wouldn't that still have a dramatic change of trim?

Similarly wasn't it found that using elevons for control in such conditions was problematic arrangement in its own right. (as with the X-4 and DH.108 Swallow, though it didn't seem too much of a problem on the Delta configuration)

 

[Soren]

Soren,

But if the (type II) horizontal stabilizer was blanked, wouldn't that still have a dramatic change of trim?

The lower wing placement would ensure that wouldn't happen as the critical AoA of the wing would be reached first. But if it did get blanked by the wings then it wouldn't matter anaway as it would only zero the trim, the elevons controlling the pitch of the a/c. The problem with the Pulqui was that the wing would block airflow to the elevator controls that were situated on the horizontal stabilizer, resulting in the dangerous deep stall.

Similarly wasn't it found that using elevons for control in such conditions was problematic arrangement in its own right. (as with the X-4 and DH.108 Swallow, though it didn't seem too much of a problem on the Delta configuration)

No it isn't a problem, it's just more complicated build. Remember the Me-163 used the same system and it was an excellent flying platform (Too bad the engine was a bomb waiting to explode).

 

[kool kitty89]

Yes, but I think the real problems came in when these aircraft got close to or exceeded Mach 1 (in dives), somthing the Me 163 didn't do. (additionally the Swallow had structural problems)

I could be wrong, as I'm not totally sure what specific problems were found with the configuration. (in the case of the X-4 it was deemed impractical, but I haven't seen a full explaination)

 

[davparlr]

However looking at the Ta-183 there doesn't seem to be any dihedral or anhedral at all.

Like I said, I didn't understand what this had to do with stall characteristics, anyway.

I disagree, the German understanding of the transsonic region was pretty good by 45 and completely unrivalled.

That magic wand. It was not much more than a paper plane.

Furthermore the Ta-183 project would benefit a lot from German high speed research studies made in 1945, not to mention the planned test flying of the P.1101 prototype.

This would have been invaluable and could have been the first swept wing fighter, but it would have taken awhile to integrate to get the data and integrate it into the 183. I still don't believe it would have been viable until late '46. Just too much of a technology leap. Did that engine ever work well? It seemed like a kludge.

The lower wing placement would ensure that wouldn't happen as the critical AoA of the wing would be reached first. But if it did get blanked by the wings then it wouldn't matter anaway as it would only zero the trim, the elevons controlling the pitch of the a/c.

If that tail mounted surface provided some stabilization, which it probably did, instability problems would probably occur.

No it isn't a problem, it's just more complicated build. Remember the Me-163 used the same system and it was an excellent flying platform (Too bad the engine was a bomb waiting to explode).

I am not sure the Me-163 had to do very much low speed, high alpha maneuvering like the 183 would have to do. The Ta-183 seemed pretty close coupled in pitch, but then, so did the Northrop XP-56.

 

[davparlr]

I overlaid the 2000ft. and 1000ft. radius of blast over Hamburg (3rd picture) and it doesn´t even cover the old, 14th century area ofthe city (yellow line), not to speak of ww2 area. All of Hamburg is build from structures comparable to those of Hieroshima, which remained standing. A nuke would just reassemble the debris caused by the various conventional bombing raids that city was subject to. It would -in my opinion- not have the power to wipe out large cities as long as the building structure was NOT WOODEN. Nagasaki and Hiroshima are not very large cities.
Please note also the image taken from Hieroshima at ground zero: The area destruction effect caused by blast and heat effects is remarkable and frightening but The concrete buildings do not show much damage, as a matter of fact, they remain standing (1st picture).

I overlaid historic photographs of Nagasaki before after the bomb with the current google earth picture (see below, 2nd picure). Note that the destructive force reduces greatly at a distance to point zero: At 1000ft. distance, bridges remained standing, at 1500 ft. distance, large factory buildings (no. 17) were heavy damaged but not destroyed.
It would require a nuke with a figure of merit of 60 to 80 compared to that dropped over Nagasaki to wipe out Hamburg.

I assure you that an atomic bomb blast in the middle of any German city would have stunned and paralyzed the Germans. It would have been felt and seen and heard for miles around. Those building you see standing were reinforced, earthquake-proof structures. I doubt any of the German buildings had that type of reinforcements. Most were probably brick/stone, which, people from my neck of the woods, So. California, know are very poor at shearing forces such as earthquake and horrific wind.

 

[Soren]

Like I said, I didn't understand what this had to do with stall characteristics, anyway.

Did I mention it ? I just responded to what Delcyros said.

That magic wand. It was not much more than a paper plane.

Nope, no magic wand. The Germans were way ahead in transsonic research and high speed aerodynamics, and by 45 they had a very good understanding of the transsonic region and even the supersonic one.

This would have been invaluable and could have been the first swept wing fighter, but it would have taken awhile to integrate to get the data and integrate it into the 183. I still don't believe it would have been viable until late '46. Just too much of a technology leap. Did that engine ever work well? It seemed like a kludge.

If the war had went on a year then there's no reason to believe that Ta-183 wouldn't have made it. Remember how long it took from idea to realization with the He-162.

If that tail mounted surface provided some stabilization, which it probably did, instability problems would probably occur.

Well seeing that the Ta-183 used elevons I really don't see any real problems occuring. The Me-163 didn't even have any horizontal stabilizer.

I am not sure the Me-163 had to do very much low speed, high alpha maneuvering like the 183 would have to do. The Ta-183 seemed pretty close coupled in pitch, but then, so did the Northrop XP-56.

Davparlr the Me-163 glided back home to land so you can be pretty sure that a lot of slow speed maneuvering was done with that a/c, and according to it's pilots it maneuvered excellently.

The Me-163 featured integrated wing slots btw.

 

[kool kitty89]

The slots would have increased drag considerably though, wouldn't they? (iirc indicuded drag resulting from slots wasn't a problem, but the parasite drag at gh speed would be)

 

[delcyros]

I assure you that an atomic bomb blast in the middle of any German city would have stunned and paralyzed the Germans. It would have been felt and seen and heard for miles around. Those building you see standing were reinforced, earthquake-proof structures. I doubt any of the German buildings had that type of reinforcements. Most were probably brick/stone, which, people from my neck of the woods, So. California, know are very poor at shearing forces such as earthquake and horrific wind.

I respect you differing opinion but remain unchangd in my disagreeing.
The bombings of London didn´t paralized the british, the unparalleled bombings of Coventry just heartened resistence. The fire-bombings of Hamburg didn´t paralized the citizen and a nuke wouldn´t have don either.
We in Germany call surviving houses of pre-ww2 period in the cities "Altbau", because they do differ greatly from more recently build houses in construction and wall thickness. They are stone-brick constructions but very strong and uncomparable to US light brick constructions. Heck when I measure the wall at the window, right next to my desk, I come out with 19.6" deepness! This wall is not certified as earthquake proof but sure, it´s tough. Not shear forces are applied at nuke bombs but blast (pressure) effects, radiation, em-impulses and heat.
Stone-brick cancel two of the four out (EM is rather unimportant here, too) and offers more resistence to blast than any wooden frame building.
At Hieroshima, a number of wooden frame building remained standing at 3.1 to 3.5 psi overpressure.
The rather stronger ~20 Kt Nagasaki-bomb mentioned above developed 10psi at 3.700 ft., 5 psi at 5.800 ft., dropping to 3.0 psi at 8.500 ft. distance to point zero.
Any damage to buildings below 3 psi is unlikely, it would translate to only 150 Km/h windfactors (not uncommon at very heavy storms). I personally expect a pressure of at least 8 psi to show significant results on typical urban constructions as those employed in Hamburg.
You can try Yourselfe:
Federation of American Scientists :: Nuclear Weapon Effects Calculator

 

[davparlr]

Did I mention it ? I just responded to what Delcyros said.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did.

Nope, no magic wand. The Germans were way ahead in transsonic research and high speed aerodynamics, and by 45 they had a very good understanding of the transsonic region and even the supersonic one.

Understanding does not necessarily lead to success. History if full of failures in the presence of theoretical understanding.

If the war had went on a year then there's no reason to believe that Ta-183 wouldn't have made it. Remember how long it took from idea to realization with the He-162.

I don't buy it. Even Tank and his team had difficulties with the design. The He-182 was basically a conventional design with only the jet engine being being particularly unique.

Well seeing that the Ta-183 used elevons I really don't see any real problems occuring. The Me-163 didn't even have any horizontal stabilizer.

It seems to be quite a sophisticated and complex design just for trim. I suspect it also provided some stablization.

Davparlr the Me-163 glided back home to land so you can be pretty sure that a lot of slow speed maneuvering was done with that a/c, and according to it's pilots it maneuvered excellently.

The Me-163 featured integrated wing slots btw.

I think it landed like the space shuttle. With no power you don't want to be using much speed killing maneuvers. I would suspect almost all maneuvering was at rather high speed.

 

[davparlr]

I respect you differing opinion but remain unchangd in my disagreeing.

While I agree that the damage impact would not be great, certainly compared to previous airbourne attacks (I do think you are underestimating the damage, though), I think you are not addressing the psychological impacts. This would have been an event never seen before in Germany. Briliant light, incredible noise, huge cloud, tens of thousands dead, all instantaneous, all visible and heard for miles around. You have to remember, Japan had also seen horrendous bombings including firebombing of its cities and still resisted. They did not resist when they saw what damage one bomb could do. I do not think the Germans would have reacted in a less intelligent manner.

 

[Messy1]

I believe it still comes down to a war of attrition, and it is one that Germany can not win facing all the nations that were opposing Germany. It would still lose the battle in the Atlantic, and once it did, allied supplies could come over to Europe almost unopposed.

 

[syscom3]

If Germany is going to survive, It will need to defeat the allied invasion of France in 1944. And the LW will need to maintain air superiority throughtout 1944, well into the fall of 1944.

They couldnt, thus the clock is ticking for Germany the moment the allies land.

No matter what the scientists in Germany cook up, none of it would be available untill well into the end of 1945, when it would be irrelevant.

 

[delcyros]

If the war had went on a year then there's no reason to believe that Ta-183 wouldn't have made it. Remember how long it took from idea to realization with the He-162.

It is a common misbelief that the ralization of the He-162 was that short. As a matter of fact, Heinkel did extensive preliminary works on a plane called He-500 since late 1943. These works included many windtunnel studies and detail constructions and must be regarded as the root of the He-162. When the Volksjäger specifications were issued by the RLM on sept., 10th, 1944, Heinkel used the 10 days construction time to modify the He-500 according to the RLM requirements. The RLM didn´t choosed the most promising or the simpliest but the most developed proposal.

Well seeing that the Ta-183 used elevons I really don't see any real problems occuring. The Me-163 didn't even have any horizontal stabilizer.

Your opinion differs from that of the EHK in a discussion of the single engined jet fighters dating to feb. 22, 1944. The elevons of the Ta-183 in combination of high sweep ar were considered likely to give trouble at high mach fractions (including the possibility of "Umkehrwirkung").

 

[wwii:)aircraft]

In the event that Germany would have been winning in 1943, it would have been the USSR and not the US or the UK that the Luftwaffe would be facing. The Russians were a type of people who would never give up. Had Germany successful defeat the USSR in 1941 or 1942, it would have been very difficult for Germany to have control over Russia; riots or even a revolution may have occurred. Going back to 1943, if Germany won the Battle of Kursk, the Russians would have been set back, but not defeated. The reason for why it was such a huge turning point in WWII is because unlike Russia, Germany always had a lack of resources, equipment, etc...; the Germans could never recover from such a defeat.

As for the fighting against the US and GB, it was possible for the Luftwaffe to stop Allied Strategic Bombing Campaign. The strategic bombing campaign for the allies was a very difficult task to do. Aircraft needed to be organized and mobilized properly, bombers were costly and proper equipment and pilot training was essential. High casualties were all that was needed for the allied strategic bombing campaign to stop. Why didn't the Luftwaffe achieve this? Because they always had a shortage of pilots, aircraft, and equipment; the majority of all those things being used on the Eastern Front. It wasn't until early 1944 that the Luftwaffe began to mass produce their fighters, but by then, they didn't have enough pilots or fuel to use them.

If the Allied Strategic Bombing Campaign were to stop, the only place that Germany would need to fight the US or GB would be in the Mediterranean. I think from the beginning Germany and Italy had no chance of winning in N. Africa. Italy was not prepared what so ever and Germany always had a lack of equipment and resources. This was once again due to the Eastern Front. The only way for the Axis to have won was if Malta was invaded. This would have made it possible for enough equipment and resources to go to Tobruk which would have made the Axis forces win at the Battle of El Alemain.
By 1943, there was no way in which Germany would have been able to hold Tunisia; the only reason why it took so long for Italy to fall was that Germany from a geographical standpoint was at an advantage (the Gustav line). If Germany had more forces there i.e. not lose the Battle of Kursk, then I think it may have been possible for the Gustav line to never fall; a counter-attack may also have been possible.

Going back to the original question of could the Luftwaffe survive after 1943 if it faced only the US/UK airforces, my answer is yes. If the Allied Strategic Bombing Campaign was stopped (which was possible) then the only place in which the Luftwaffe would need to deal with US or GB air forces is in Italy. In Italy the Allies already achieved air supremacy yet achieving that had almost no effect on the fighting on the ground. Because of this, I would argue that it would Russian air power, which is almost limitless, that would have been the main threat.