D-9 with C3 fuel

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by thrawn, Feb 10, 2008.

  1. thrawn

    thrawn New Member

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    Hello!

    After reading many threads in this forum, i often recognized the mention of the fw 190d-9 using C3 fuel. I wonder where this came from :| (possibly from il-2???). I never saw any document showing the dora was flying on c3.
    I hope somebody can enlighten me. :?:


    Greetings

    Thrawn
     
  2. Kurfürst

    Kurfürst Banned

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    The Dora 9`s Jumo 213 could and did indeed run on C-3, appearantly it was operating with higher compression ratio in this case. Both the engine`s ratings and the use of C-3 by D-9 units is documented by DB and OKL papers.
     
  3. thrawn

    thrawn New Member

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    Hi Kurfürst!

    According to Mueller "Junkers Flugtreibwerke" (Junkers aero-engines) and Gersdorff/Schubert the jumo 213 variant wich had a higher compression ratio and could use c3 was the 213b variant. But this engine wasn't put into series production and no d-9 was equipped with it. :|
    Did you own these papers? It would be very interesting to have look at it. :shock:


    Greetings

    Thrawn
     
  4. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Quite a few of the Jumo 213A's were modified to run on C-3 fuel. I'll get the exact details when I get home.
     
  5. Kurfürst

    Kurfürst Banned

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    Hi,

    I can`t say for the Jumo 213b being fitted or not, but DB papers show the two variants were developed, one with B4 and one w. C3 with higher compression. And, I`ve seen a paper from 19 March 1945 from Luftflottenkommando 6 (Eastern Front, unfortunately the ones for the Western Front are missing, so if anybody came accross these please contact me) the only D-9 unit in Lflt. 6 will be running on C-3... 'Nach Mitteilung General der Jagdflieger sing nachstehende Verbände mit folgenden Flugzeugmustern ausgerüstet:'
     

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  6. thrawn

    thrawn New Member

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    Thanks allot Kurfürst.
    Quite interesting. I wonder why this isn't mentioned in any book or chart (exept the mystical "A-Lader als Bodenmotor" chart).
    What performance would have a c3 powerd 190d?

    Greetings

    Thrawn
     
  7. Dr.VanNostrin

    Dr.VanNostrin Member

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    Hey Guys. Don't know about you but I think I would rather be in the high compression "D" than something else. What was the octane rating of c3 vs the other available fuel?

    Thanks

    Dr.V
     
  8. Kurfürst

    Kurfürst Banned

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    Sythethic C-3 was equivalent of something like 96/145 Grade fuel.
    I am not sure about the other main fuel type, B-4, it was 87 / something grade.

    The Fischer Tropsch Archives estimates that apprx. 2/3s of the mid/late war avgas production was C-3.

    @Thrawn,

    I believe the D-9/C-3 variants performance is listed in the 'Bodenlader' chart you`ve mentioned..?
     
  9. thrawn

    thrawn New Member

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    Hmmm... the high compression D-9 (if existed) had a take of power output of ca. 2000hp, while the standard d-9 with lower grade fuel and MW50 injection had a power output of 2100hp.
    I don't know if the c3 dora's were equipped with MW50, but i doubt it, because this would mean too much stress for the engine, at least if the additional power was as high as in the lower compression engine. (2100hp with MW50 - 1750hp take of power = 350hp; 2000hp +350hp = 2350hp with MW50 sounds too much for the engine. i would think 2250hp is the absolute max power output a normal jumo213 could stand.)
    On the other side the combat and continious power rating could be higher, but in this case i think the radiator of the d9 was too small to absorb the additional heat, so that the cooling grills have to open slightly and the speed advantage would be lost.

    Greetings

    Thrawn
     
  10. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    The Jumo 213 could take far more than 2,250 HP thats for sure, probably around 3,500 HP. The RR Merlin can be made to produce 3,300 HP horsepower IIRC.
     
  11. thrawn

    thrawn New Member

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    Hi Soren!

    3500hp? On a test bed probably. but then the engine is dead. It could never deliver such a high output in operational service. Junkers developed at the end of the war the Jumo213J with four valve technology and many other changes, such as higher compression, higher rpm and it was structural strenghed. Junker expected for this engine high vibration, high wear and a short life of about 50 hours. But for a wartime interceptor engine is was good enough. The power output of the Jumo213J with emergency power was about 2250hp.

    Greetings

    Thrawn
     
  12. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    The technology wasn't there in 45, but today you can easily make such an engine produce over 3,000 HP.
     
  13. thrawn

    thrawn New Member

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    Hi Soren!

    Absolutley! With some changes, better materials, proper cooling, good maintenance and for short time periods, i had no doubt a Jumo213 could deliver 3500hp today. Its too bad that no more 190A's and D9's, 109's, Ta's with there DB's, BMW's and Jumo's survive. It would be great fun to see these Warbirds among the others at the Reno airace. 8)

    Greetings

    Thrawn
     
  14. thrawn

    thrawn New Member

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    The problem ist, that these graph's at this chart are imho all calculated. There is no evidence, that in real these performance could be achieved. especially the "A-Lader als Bodenmotor" variant is highly doubtful, because it would need ca. 2400hp to reach 640km/h at SL.
    Its also very strange that the B4+MW50 with 2100hp is a bit slower than the C3 variant with 2000hp without MW50.
    I think these are FW estimates for the existing B4 Dora in comparison with other ongoing Projekts. Junkers planned a special low altitude Jumo213S with 2400hp, but i think no engine was completed bevor the end of war.

    Greetings

    Thrawn
     
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