Dateline 1941: Did the Martin Baltimore have any advantages over the Douglas A-20 Havoc sufficient to justify US adoption?

Schweik said:

So in this sense, B-25 and Baltimore were produced and deployed on a similar timeline, which amounted to the second or third generation of DB-7.

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Wait, what? What amounted to the "second or third generation of DB-7"? The DB-7 becomes the A-20, not either of these.

As far as I know no Baltimore shipped to Britain left the country, as per usual with a new US type some were sent to Britain for testing. AG688 to 691 would be the first 4 imports, all marked BRD(Mods) in September or October 1941, AG688 crashed in transit 13 November 1943, AG689 SOC 16 September 1944, AG690 SOC 12 February 1945, AG691 became 3419M at 2 SofTT SOC 17 December 1944. AG836 and AG837 would be the March 1942 arrivals, both BRD March and April, AG836 SOC 5 March 1946, AG837 SOC 29 March 1945. Not sure about the May 1943 import, but it is noticeable how many Baltimore crashed in the US or en route after export. The US report Baltimore exports began in September 1941, with 91 by the end of the year.

Not sure how generation is defined but the DB7 began production in October 1939, the DB-7A in November 1940, the A-20A in December 1940, the DB-7B in April 1941 the Boeing built DB-7B in August 1941.

As far as the US is concerned 102 of the first French Maryland order had been exported by end 1939, the remaining 13 soon followed, and 98 of the second order by end March 1940, the final 2 in June. The third French order was 68 to France by end June 1940, 61 to Britain June and July 1940 and 1 in January 1941. The British Maryland order for 150 exports began in January 1941.

The French DB-7 order exports bgan in 1939 with 99 exported by end April 1940, 1 in May. The next order was split 32 France 138 Britain. The British DB-7A order exports began in December 1940.

So plenty of time for the French to form units and use Marylands, less so for DB-7.

Yeah so in terms of a direct comparison, Baltimore is competing with a DB-7B / Boston III and IIIA, and A-20C, which is (IMO) roughly the third generation. The later G series and others didn't start arriving until later 1943 IIRC.

elbmc1969 said:

Wait, what? What amounted to the "second or third generation of DB-7"? The DB-7 becomes the A-20, not either of these.

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The lineage of the Boston / Havoc / DB-7 / A-20 is rather complex, with parallel development of foreign and US / domestic types with a variety of different modifications. I'm using DB-7 here as a general reference to the whole 'family', so to speak.

Schweik said:

The lineage of the Boston / Havoc / DB-7 / A-20 is rather complex, with parallel development of foreign and US / domestic types with a variety of different modifications. I'm using DB-7 here as a general reference to the whole 'family', so to speak.

Subject Index: Douglas DB-7/ A-20 Havoc/ Boston

Subject Index: Douglas DB-7/ A-20 Havoc/ Boston, served under more names that just about any other significant aircraft of the Second World War

www.historyofwar.org

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Ah, you typed "Baltimore" instead of "Boston" in your previous post, so it didn't make sense.

Schweik said:

Yeah so in terms of a direct comparison, Baltimore is competing with a DB-7B / Boston III and IIIA, and A-20C, which is (IMO) roughly the third generation. The later G series and others didn't start arriving until later 1943 IIRC.

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The A-20Cs were being built in 1941. A-20 models can get a bit confusing as the A-20A did have some protection while the A-20B had none. A-20C did have protection.

From Joe Baugher.
" The A-20G was first ordered on June 1, 1942 and first delivered in February of 1943"

Baltimore's equipped 11 squadrons in 1943 and 12 squadrons in 1944.

3 squadrons re-equipped with Baltmores from Venturas.

The Baltimore's combat debut was just before El Alamein.

Schweik said:

Why Maryland wasn't more widely adopted may be simply down to relatively small production run / initial order (?). The Wiki on the Maryland is a bit misleading because the British certainly put it into fairly heavy use as a bomber for a while, (i.e. not just recon from Malta)

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The total number supplied to British contracts was 225, most of which went to the Med and the Middle East. and were primarily used for reconnaissance because of their high speed, although only the one bomber unit operated it, 39 Sqn which replaced its Blenheims with it, the type primarily operating with 431 Flight, which was a recon unit that later became 69 Sqn. The Maryland was the first US bomber the RAF used in North Africa but it was the South African Air Force squadrons that primarily used it as a bomber.

When I say 'The British' here I'm referring to the Commonwealth forces as well, per previous requests on other threads about how to refer to them...

Schweik said:

When I say 'The British' here I'm referring to the Commonwealth forces as well, per previous requests on other threads about how to refer to them...

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I get you, but given the nature of South Africans, whom I have a few as friends, you wouldn't wanna call them British!

Hey what can I say, I was rather badgered into this particular naming convention on here by people of the British Isles and Commonwealth alike, so 'British' is the catch-all. I know a lot of the South African pilots in WW2 were of Dutch heritage etc., certainly not trying to disparage anybody.

Schweik said:

Hey what can I say, I was rather badgered into this particular naming convention on here by people of the British Isles and Commonwealth alike,

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No badgering from me, buddy, but in all seriousness though, the SAAF squadrons were not RAF units, unlike the New Zealand, Canadian and Australian Article XV squadrons in the 400 range, although the Aussies and Canadians called them RAAF and RCAF squadrons, but they were under RAF control, the Kiwis were simply (New Zealand) squadrons of the RAF, whereas the RNZAF and RAAF and RCAF had its own units separate from the RAF, and these, including the SAAF, were separate entities from the RAF.

Confusing, yes, but logical. The Kiwis were the first to provide a Commonwealth squadron in the RAF.

Just to clarify the A-20, DB-7, Boston and so forth that each designation served a different purpose. A-20 was the USAAF version specially modified for its needs from the basic DB-7 with strengthened fuselage and other modifications, so was quite different to the DB-7, which was the manufacturer's designation, and it was the French and British that received DB-7s first, the British first introducing the names Boston and Havoc. The Boston I was the designation of ex-French DB-7s taken over by the Brits, the Boston IIs, or DB-7A all became Havoc night intruder/fighters and the Boston III was the only DB-7 variant ordered by the British before the A-20C became the Boston IIIA under Lend-Lease, which as mentioned was a different airframe to the DB-7B Boston III.

Well in the Med they were all part of the DAF or one of the other umbrella units, right? In this case the South Africans, who often got the older and more obsolete fighters (some units were still flying Tomahawks and Hurricanes in early 1943) they got the best bomber because the Blenheim crews were pretty much walking into a meat grinder. Maryland units took losses but nowhere near as bad.

Maybe that helps explain why their bombing exploits aren't better documented though. I'm kind of in the middle of something right now but I'll grab MAW and copy down some of the missions later.

Schweik said:

Maybe that helps explain why their bombing exploits aren't better documented though.

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It does depend, because they were SAAF units and not RAF units there might not be as much out there. Operational records for the SAAF units will be held in Jo'Burg presumably, or wherever the archive for the SAAF is, the museum is at Swartkop Pretoria. As for 39 Squadron RAF, that unit is still active, formerly operating reconnaissance Canberras, but now it uses the Reaper unmanned aerial vehicle, but the wartime ORB will be at the National Archive, although you could try the RAF Museum at Hendon for it, because they have a few there, and for info on 69 Sqn/431 Flight as well.

Schweik said:

Wow, he just improved a bit in my estimation. Imagine congress people today doing something that risky...

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Oh come now - some of them are unvaccinated.

Tkdog said:

Oh come now - some of them are unvaccinated.

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That's because our Alien Lizard overlords don't need vaccination against COVID-19 to them it's just a mild cough and a runny snout.

One thing about WW2, it helped cut through competing realities and various delusions in fairly short order. Lots of people had ideas about the supposed inferiority of the Japanese which swiftly vanished after the first few combat encounters. I also doubt too many of those guys in the South Pacific were refusing to take antimalarial drugs, or antibiotics, or to get dusted with DDT for that matter, even though there were definitely side effects. Of course then not to much later Uncle Sam had some of them lining up to dig trenches at the site of atom bomb tests. Trust is readily abused...

Anyway, cracked MAW, here are a few bombing missions:

MAW says (Vol 2 page 89) that 55 and 223 Squadrons received Martin 187 Baltimores in early May 1942. He says there was a delay of their going into action due to problems with defensive guns.

On 23 May 1942 Baltimore bombers of 223 Sqn were sent into action without fighter escort. They were intercepted by Bf 109F-4 of I./ 3./ JG 27. 3 x Baltimore Is were lost and 1 x Baltimore II was damaged. Crew on the Baltimore I said their defensive .30 LMG all jammed.

20 June 1942 Baltimore II force landed after mission (223 Sqn)
26 June 1942 2 x Baltimore II from 223 Sqn crash landed due to fighter attack, crew in both aircraft survived. A Boston II also crash landed. (This is during the run up to 1st El Alamein)
27 June 1942 3 x Baltimore II (223 Sqn) shot down by fighters (two of three crews KiA)
7 June 1942 1 x Boston (12 SAAF) damaged
10 July 1942 1 x Baltimore II (55 Sqn) crashed during takeoff, crew safe
11 July 1942 1 x Baltimore II (69 Sqn) MiA on recce from Tunisia
23 July 1942 1 x Boston (24 SAAF) and 1 x B-24 lost (I think this is the first B-24 lost)
24 July 1942, during a well escorted raid by 18 x Bostons and 12 x Baltimores, 1 x Boston III was lost to flak. No Baltimores lost.
(it's worth noting that by this point, many more bomber missions are being flown, and the previously catastrophic fighter losses have declined a lot. For a variety of reasons no doubt, one SAAF pilot mentions that they started flying finger 4 on July 22. Spitfires are also in the area now but aren't flying that many missions I think due to range, and 57th FG was active as well but in small numbers.)
10 Aug 1942 Baltimore ('1437 Flt') MiA
28 Aug 1942 Baltimore ('1437 Flt') damaged by Flak, 1 KiA, aircraft returned
30 Aug 1942 Boton III (24 SAAF) shot down

So it seems Baltimores were introduced in May 42, had a bad (unescorted) mission later that month, apparently had Browning .30 guns replaced by .303, and were operational in two bombing squadrons (223 and 55) and one recon unit (1437 Strat Recon) by Summer (June 1942). Which is just before El Alamein but it's before the first Battle of El Alamein. By Sept or Oct another Baltimore Sqn (21 SAAF) is active. I see B-25 losses in Oct of 42, the TO&E shows 3 B-25 units and a couple of Liberator unis by Oct.

The British + Commonwealth forces seem to have phased out Blenheim by April 42, and to be only using Boston and Baltimore bombers over the land battles by June. US are using B-25 and B-24, and later A-20 I think by Kasserine pass. Per the TO&E on pages 401-403 of MAW II, DAF also has Blenheims, Beauforts, Wellingtons, Hudsons, Hallifax, Wellesly and Ablacores, but these seem to only be used in Maritime operations.

The value of the bombers is indicated for example on a raid on 9 Oct 1942, where there was a huge air battle, but Axis airbase at Qotaifya and Fuka were bombed, and 24 x Bf 109s, 3 x MC 202s and 3 other aircraft were damaged or destroyed by bombing and strafing on the ground. Compare this to the 4 x Bf 109s shot down by DAF fighters, (of which 11 DAF fighters were lost). It shows how the new tactics - bombing the Axis base- were telling, and helping to even the odds.

Ok so going back a bit in time, these are Allied bomber casualties from MAW VOL 1, starting in early 1941 (major loss days in Bold)
(This is quick and dirty so forgive me if I missed any or got a date wrong)

2 Feb 1941, 2 x Blenheim shot down
13 April 1941, 2 x Blenheim IV (55 Sqn) MiA
15 April 1941, 1 x Blenheim IV (14 Sqn) FTR, 1 x Lysander shot down
17 April 1941, 1 x Blenheim IV (55 Sqn) 'Shot up by CR 42', MiA
18 April 1941, 1 x Blenheim IV (45 Sqn) shot down
(First Marylands arrive, Bf 109E-7s arrive)
23 April 1941, 2 x Blenheim IV (55 Sqn) lost or crash landed
9 May 1941, 2 x Maryland (39 Sqn) lost
10 May 1941, 1 x Blenheim (14 Sqn) lost
16 May 1941, 1 x Blenheim IV lost
19 May 1941, 1 x Blenheim IV MiA
21 May 1941, 5 x Blenheim IV (14 Sqn) shot down
23 May 1941, 1 x Blenheim IV (45 Sqn) shot down
25 May 1941, 5 x Blenheim IV (45 and 14 Sqn) shot down, 1 x Maryland (24 SAAF) crash landed
26 May 1941, 3 x Blenheim IV (45 Sqn) and 1 x Lysander (6 Sqn) shot down
27 May 1941, 7 x Blenheim IV (45, 55, and 14 Sqn) lost, including 2 from a collision

on June 12, 1941, MAW I (p. 216) lists the following units prior to Operation Battleaxe:

* 73, 213, 274, 229, 33, and 6 RAF, 1 and 2 SAAF Sqns - Hurricane I
* 250 Sqn - Tomahawk IIb
* 14, 45, 113) Sqn - Blenheim IV
* 39 RAF, 24 SAAF Sqn - Maryland
He mentions that Wellingtons were also available, and 272 Sqn (Beaufighters had gone to Syria)

These are the Allied bomber casualties I see after that (major loss days in bold):

14 June 1941 - 1 Maryland II (39 Sqn) FTR
15 June 1941 - 1 x Maryland II (39 Sqn) Shot down b 109s
(17 June, oddly a Brewster Buffalo !? from 805 Sqn was shot down)
8 July 1941 - 1 x Blenheim IV (113 Sqn) shot down
21 Aug 1941 - 3 x Maryland II shot down and 1 damaged (12 and 24 SAAF)
31 Aug 1941 - 2 x Blenheim IV (113 Sqn) shot down
14 Sept 1941 - 1 x Maryland II (24 SAAF) shot down
27 Sept 1941 - 2 x Maryland II (21 SAAF) Shot down, 2 x Maryland II (12 SAAF) damaged with gunners wounded
28 Sept 1941 - 2 x Blenheim IV (55 Sqn) Shot down by flak
6 Oct 1941 - 1 x Maryland II (12 SAAF) Damaged
7 Oct 1941 - 1 x Maryland II (12 SAAF) Damaged, 1 x KiA 1 x WiA
19 Oct 1941 - 1 x Blenheim IV (55 Sqn) Shot down
20 Oct 1941 - 2 x Blenheim IV (55 and 113 Sqn) Shot Down
23 Oct 1941 - 1 x Maryland II (60 SAAF) MiA
29 Oct 1941 - 2 x Blenheim IV (55 Skn) lost
30 Oct 1941 - 2 x Maryland II damaged in collision, 1 crew PoW one returned.
7 Nov 1941 - 2 x Maryland II (12 SAAF) damaged, 1 x Maryland II (21 SAAF) shot down
8 Nov 1941 - 1 x Blenheim IVf (113 Sqn) Shot down (these were 'fighter Blenheims' on a strafing run)

Nov 1941 - Operation Crusader. He's now showing 1 x RAF Maryland Sqn (223) 3 x SAAF Maryland bomber Sqns (12, 21 and 24), 2 recon (60 and '1437 Flight'), and another with Marylands and Beauforts (39), 1 unit (272 sqn) of Beaufighters, 6 x Blenheim IV (11, 8, 45, 55, 14, 84 and 'Lorraine' Sqns). 24 SAAF also had some Boston III. Plus a couple of units of Wellingtons and the previously mentioned mix of other older types which don't seem to be used much in the land war.

14 Nov - 1 x Maryland II (12 SAAF) shot down by Flak
15 Nov - 2 x Maryland II shot down, 1 x Maryland II and 1 x Blenheim destroyed on the ground
18 Nov - 2 x Maryland II (21 SAAF) shot down, 1 x Blenheim IV (14 Sqn) shot down
19 Nov - 1 x Maryland II, 1 x Beaufighter, 3 x Blenheim IV shot down
20 Nov - 4 x Maryland II (21 SAAF), 1 x Blenheim IV (11 Sqn) Shot down and / or crash landed
21 Nov - 1 x Wellington Ic shot down, 3 x Wellington Ic destroyed on the ground, 1 x Maryland II (223 Sqn) 'damaged beyond repair' 1 Boston III shot down
22 Nov - 4 x Blenheim IV (45 Sqn) Shot down, 1 x Wellington 1c Shot down
(This is the day of a famous engagement between 3 RAAF vs. JG 27 with a total of 5 x Tomahawk IIb and 4 x Bf 109F-4 were shot down, plus another 2 of each lost in other actions on the same day)
23 Nov - 1 x Beaufighter, 1x Boston III shot down
24 Nov - 1 x Boston III (24 SAAF) shot down, 1 x Maryland II destroyed on the ground
25 Nov - 2 x Blenheim IV (84 Sqn) shot down, 7 x Maryland II damaged by flak
28 Nov - 4 x Blenheim IV (11 and Lorraine Sqn) Shot down
6 Dec - 3 x Beaufighter Ic (272 Sqn) and 2 x Blenheim IV Shot down

(worth pointing out that in this period there were several days where the Maryland units were operational but didn't take any losses)

So from all the above, I'd say that while the Blenheim remained in use for a long time, it was already taking heavy casualties by late spring or early summer 1941. By Summer 1941 it was arguably being replaced as the main frontline bomber by the Maryland, and then by the fall, also the Boston. Baltimores were replacing the Marylands by June of 42, and were used with considerable success alongside the Bostons through the end of the fighting in Tunisia and then into Sicily and Italy. The Americans also brought in B-25s and B-24s, and then in 1943 B-26s became increasingly important. All of them did pretty well so long as they were escorted.

I should also note, for a variety of reasons the vast majority of personnel and aircraft losses for the DAF was in fighters, which got bad by Summer of 1941 and were appalling for much of the first half of 1942 with the arrival of the Bf 109F. Some days DAF was losing 15-20 fighters. Things began to even out in mid 1942, again for a variety of reasons (change to wingman / finger four formations, and some other improved tactics, better training including more gunnery training, improved radios, arrival of Spitfire and later P-38 units, arrival of P-40 F/L units, and - especially, I think - increasingly effective use of light and medium bombers). Prior to mid 1942 I do not think DAF was getting much use out of their bombers.

Escorted light (and later medium and heavy) bomber raids against Axis airbases and other critical targets (including ground forces during the big battles) helped shift the momentum in the Allied favor. The bomber raids forced the Axis fighter units to fight in more disadvantaged circumstances, and the bombing caused substantial losses of aircraft and supplies, esp. fuel. This helped the DAF 'reduce' their nemesis JG. 27, forcing that unit to rotate out, and be replaced by J.G. 77, part of JG 53 and some Fw 190s from JG 2. In spite of all this plus improved Italian fighters (more MC 202 and new MC 205s) the Axis could not reclaim air superiority and was for the most part getting the worst of it from that point onward.

For most of the first half of 1942 the most effective bombing DAF was doing was by their fighter-bombers. Which was helpful on the battlefield but is one of the reasons why they lost so many fighters.