Defensive armament

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Operations research seemed to find that defensive armament on escorted bombers was of marginal worth and actually tended to increase casualties. I've not read the actual reports (they don't seem to be online), but I think this is their logic.

  • A certain quantity of bombs is needed to destroy or neutralize a target. For argument, let's use 10000 tons.
  • Your force has one type of bomber, which can deliver 1 ton of bombs in condition 1 ( It has a crew of nine (pilot, copilot, navigator, bombardier, and five gunners). The dorsal and ventral turret each weighs 2000 lb with gunner and ammunition. The waist guns each weigh 750 lb with gunner and ammunition.)
    • Group I is using the fully armed bombers. When escorted, it suffers 1% loss rates on a sortie, so it loses 100 aircraft and 900 men over the campaign, which requires 10,000 sorties.
    • Group II has removed its waist guns and gunners. Its bombers can now carry 0.75 ton more bombs and have crews of seven. Their loss rate per sortie has increased to 1.25%. However, it only requires 5715 sorties, so it loses 71 aircraft and 497 men.
    • Group III has also removed the ventral and dorsal turrets, leaving a nose turret and a tail turret. Its aircraft can now carry 2 tons more than Group II's aircraft and 2.75 tons more bombs than Group I's aircraft. Its loss rate is 1.75%. Group III, however, needs only have 2670 sorties, and loses 47 aircraft, and 235 men
    • (In reality, of course, removal of waist guns and dorsal and ventral turrets would significantly reduce drag, so permitting higher speed and ceiling. This increase would probably be insufficient to markedly increase the sortie rate (reducing flight time from 10 hours round trip to 9.5 hours still limits each bomber to two sorties per day, ignoring turnaround time). Removal of the turrets would also reduce the maintenance workload on the aircraft)
The USAAF proved (possibly not to its satisfaction) that heavy defensive armament was far from sufficient to permit unescorted bombers. One rather obvious factor is that AAA isn't going to be affected by machine guns on a bomber at 20,000 ft, and AAA seems to have been the major cause of losses in strategic bombing raids (here, it's interesting that AAA's effectiveness was over-estimated by everybody except air forces, where it seems to have been under-estimated). In this, admittedly artificial, example the bomber has a rather poor bomb load. With a B-17 (2 tons; base crew of 10), Group I would need 5000 sorties, Group II (2.75 tons, crew = 8) would need 3,640, and Group III (4.75 tons, crew = 7, as only the ball turret gunner would be eliminated. While the top turret would still go, that gunner was dual-tasked as the flight engineer) would need 2,110. Using the same loss rates, Group I would lose 50 aircraft and 500 men , II would lose 46 aircraft and 368 men, and III would lose 37 aircraft and 259 men.

The most extreme example of this was, of course, the Mosquito, but it wasn't used in the sort of massed raids as were the B-17s and B-24s.

I covered this aspect of the issue in my first post albeit in a more simplistic manner. Effectiveness of a bombing mission is a function of both bomb tonnage and accuracy. The USAAF (and Allies more generally) tended to forget about the second part. It's great if your aircraft can carry 8,000 lbs of bombs, but if they all land 3,000 to 30,000 ft away from the target, then the amount of bombs really doesn't help at all. The USAAF conducted a lot of studies during the war and in roughly the next decade after the war which subsequent research proved to be deeply flawed. In part this was political (see "Bomber Mafia") and in part due to lack of an accurate understanding of the enemy records.

There are some military or Strategic targets for which very large bombs (like sub pens) or vast quantities of bombs (like say, rail yards) are needed. For most targets of military importance however, accuracy is really far more important. Not that many things can withstand a direct hit from even a 500 lb GP bomb. But even a 2,000 lb bomb or a gigantic 10,000 lb bomb will have very little effect on the target if it hits over the next hill. The US spent a vast fortune on the sophisticated gyrostabilized Norden bomb site, which was supposed to make high altitude level bombing sufficiently accurate to hit a "pickle barrel from 30,000 ft" to paraphrase the propaganda. But that was only true in tests done under ideal conditions. And conditions in the field were never ideal. In the early war bombers were often unable to even navigate to the correct city let alone pinpoint the radar station or a fuel depot. It was only after the adoption of things like radio wave direction finders that navigation (particularly at night) became comparatively reliable.

Hitting targets in Central Europe where the weather was rarely clear and sunny with still air like some test range in Nevada, and never so convenient due to aggressive fighter attacks and efficient flak concentrations, proved to be well nigh impossible. Yes you did have to send mission after mission out to try to knock out that ball bearing factory, not because of a lack of bombs (there were more than enough by an order of magnitude), but due to the abysmal level of bombing accuracy. We know from post-war analysis that while some quite important targets were hit (I don't know how far they could have gotten with it but I'm very glad Heavy water research facilities were taken out for example) most German industrial production in particular was relatively unaffected by Allied Strategic bombing.

This is in part why planners made the (IMO quite dubious) decision to shift to "de-housing" as the euphemism went. If it was that hard to hit an individual factory or rail yard, then send a ton more bombers and just flatten the entire city. Well this killed and made homeless millions of civilians, destroyed priceless architectural landmarks, art, archives and so on, it did very little to further the actual war mission. It certainly didn't cause a morale collapse in Britain, Germany, or even Japan in spite of the horrific level of firebombing there. This continues post-war. The vast amount of bombs dropped on North Korea didn't win us the war, it just mad the enemy into extra crazy underground dwelling trogladytes. We moved massive amounts of mud in Vietnam, but that didn't dissuade the Viet Cong, nor did it ever stop the flow of supplies on the Ho Chi Minh trail. It just left a vast minefield of unexploded ordinance along the borderlands in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.

You raise a reasonable point about flak. For defense against flak guns are useless. You basically have speed and altitude for defense, and to some extent elaborate maneuvering and course changes such as which were worked out by the 8th AF and Bomber Command etc. later in the war. In some Theaters, for example in the late War against Japan, flak was really the only risk, as fighter defense became negligible. However over Germany fighter defense was a substantial problem for bombers almost to the end of the war, including incidentally at night, where Bomber Command found that casualty rates began steadily increasing as German night fighters became more and more effective.

Aside from that, you are basically talking aboe about Strategic bombing. Lets not forget that bombing missions also included Operational level bombing and Tactical bombing, all of which was also quite important. In fact considering that the only real Strategic target of merit turned out to basically be oil fields, arguably Operational and Tactical bombing was actually more important. And if you look at the operational histories from places like North Africa and Russia, not to mention the Pacific Theater, heavy defensive armament was indeed quite important.

For example, from MAW III and IV it's very clear that the majority of German and Italian aircraft destroyed during Allied raids on their airfields were taken out by Medium and Heavy bombers, all quite heavily armed types. Older categories of bombers (pre-war designs) struggled to survive in that Tactical environment in spite of having fairly heavy escorts. The Tactical impact of fighter bombers and dive bombers was also reported by ground commanders to be significant or decisive in numerous battles.
 
There are two benefits to the "fast bomber." One is that intercepting aircraft need a very large (as much as 100%) speed advantage over the bomber to allow unrestricted approaches and multiple passes. This is one of the reasons the Mosquito was very difficult to intercept: fighters were simply not enough faster to get more than one pass. A second advantage is that the flight time to the target is decreased which will both reduce crew fatigue and force a shorter decision cycle on the defenders. Had the USAAF been able to field B-42s in WW2, it would likely be uninterceptable by either German or Japanese air defenses.

Good point, and wow interesting plane, I'd never seen that one before.

640px-B-42_Mixmaster.jpg


I do think you are slightly overstating the case though. Plenty of bombers were capable of flying at quite high speed, close to fighter speed, but still got intercepted and shot down. The Pe-2 or A-20 could make over 320 mph, but 350 mph Bf 109Es could fairly reliably catch and kill them (especially before they upgraded the guns). The G4M could hit 260 mph but 290 mph Wildcats could catch them. The Ju 88 was too fast for Gladiators to catch them and sometimes too fast for Hurricanes in the Med, but other fighters were able to catch and kill them in spite of having only a 20 or 30 mph speed advantage. This is where defensive guns become more important by the way, because it means the fighter is probably making a slower approach.

Of course, bombers had to fly at a cruise speed most of the time, and this meant they would be easier to intercept. The Mosquito for example had an unusually high cruising speed. And fighters also usually climbed much better than bombers so they could climb above them for extra speed so they could do passes from the side or even the front against a bomber formation even if it was going relatively fast.

Speed is one of the factors which made bombers safer.
 
Speed and altitude can make a good combination.
However some of these bombers were not actually that fast at altitude. The early G4M for instance is listed at 266mph at 13,780ft and that is just too low to escape the Wildcats. As the speed falls off with altitude for the Japanese bombers the Wildcats with two stage superchargers are going to be 40-50mph faster and/or be able to dive on them.

Not picking on the Japanese, the Russian PE-2 and the A-20s (and B-25/B-26) had a similar problem, engines critical altitude was low in relation to most of the fighters they were up against. The Mosquito was fast up into the 20,000ft range even with the Merlin 20 series engines.
The 109E was out of production when the Invasion of Russia started, they were used but every month the German fighter mix shifted more to the 109F.
 
Operations research seemed to find that defensive armament on escorted bombers was of marginal worth and actually tended to increase casualties. I've not read the actual reports (they don't seem to be online), but I think this is their logic.

  • A certain quantity of bombs is needed to destroy or neutralize a target. For argument, let's use 10000 tons.
  • Your force has one type of bomber, which can deliver 1 ton of bombs in condition 1 ( It has a crew of nine (pilot, copilot, navigator, bombardier, and five gunners). The dorsal and ventral turret each weighs 2000 lb with gunner and ammunition. The waist guns each weigh 750 lb with gunner and ammunition.)
    • Group I is using the fully armed bombers. When escorted, it suffers 1% loss rates on a sortie, so it loses 100 aircraft and 900 men over the campaign, which requires 10,000 sorties.
    • Group II has removed its waist guns and gunners. Its bombers can now carry 0.75 ton more bombs and have crews of seven. Their loss rate per sortie has increased to 1.25%. However, it only requires 5715 sorties, so it loses 71 aircraft and 497 men.
    • Group III has also removed the ventral and dorsal turrets, leaving a nose turret and a tail turret. Its aircraft can now carry 2 tons more than Group II's aircraft and 2.75 tons more bombs than Group I's aircraft. Its loss rate is 1.75%. Group III, however, needs only have 2670 sorties, and loses 47 aircraft, and 235 men
    • (In reality, of course, removal of waist guns and dorsal and ventral turrets would significantly reduce drag, so permitting higher speed and ceiling. This increase would probably be insufficient to markedly increase the sortie rate (reducing flight time from 10 hours round trip to 9.5 hours still limits each bomber to two sorties per day, ignoring turnaround time). Removal of the turrets would also reduce the maintenance workload on the aircraft)
The USAAF proved (possibly not to its satisfaction) that heavy defensive armament was far from sufficient to permit unescorted bombers. One rather obvious factor is that AAA isn't going to be affected by machine guns on a bomber at 20,000 ft, and AAA seems to have been the major cause of losses in strategic bombing raids (here, it's interesting that AAA's effectiveness was over-estimated by everybody except air forces, where it seems to have been under-estimated). In this, admittedly artificial, example the bomber has a rather poor bomb load. With a B-17 (2 tons; base crew of 10), Group I would need 5000 sorties, Group II (2.75 tons, crew = 8) would need 3,640, and Group III (4.75 tons, crew = 7, as only the ball turret gunner would be eliminated. While the top turret would still go, that gunner was dual-tasked as the flight engineer) would need 2,110. Using the same loss rates, Group I would lose 50 aircraft and 500 men , II would lose 46 aircraft and 368 men, and III would lose 37 aircraft and 259 men.

The most extreme example of this was, of course, the Mosquito, but it wasn't used in the sort of massed raids as were the B-17s and B-24s.
It was statistical studies like these that drove some of RAF thinking. On long range missions a Lancaster could carry twice the bomb load of a Halifax. The Halifax front turret was ditched in favour of a faster bomber stream. Speed always made a difference, even 20 MPH extra reduces the time in enemy air space by up to an hour on long missions, less time for the defences, more difficult for flak and less time for faults or damage to worsen even getting injured treated sooner has an effect,
 
Speed and altitude can make a good combination.
However some of these bombers were not actually that fast at altitude. The early G4M for instance is listed at 266mph at 13,780ft and that is just too low to escape the Wildcats. As the speed falls off with altitude for the Japanese bombers the Wildcats with two stage superchargers are going to be 40-50mph faster and/or be able to dive on them.

Not picking on the Japanese, the Russian PE-2 and the A-20s (and B-25/B-26) had a similar problem, engines critical altitude was low in relation to most of the fighters they were up against. The Mosquito was fast up into the 20,000ft range even with the Merlin 20 series engines.
The 109E was out of production when the Invasion of Russia started, they were used but every month the German fighter mix shifted more to the 109F.
If I remember correctly, G4Ms bombed for a much higher altitude than 13,780 feet from the get go. They were at over 20,000 feet for the Clark Field attack and was the norm for attacks against Northern Australia and Port Moresby.
 
I believe you are correct. However the point is that at those altitudes the G4M is no longer a 260mph bomber. It may be down to 235-245mph top speed and max cruise another 20-30 mph below that. Later G4Ms may have gotten different engines and done a bit better at altitude.

comparing speeds without referencing altitudes may hide certain things.
 
There are two benefits to the "fast bomber." One is that intercepting aircraft need a very large (as much as 100%) speed advantage over the bomber to allow unrestricted approaches and multiple passes. This is one of the reasons the Mosquito was very difficult to intercept: fighters were simply not enough faster to get more than one pass. A second advantage is that the flight time to the target is decreased which will both reduce crew fatigue and force a shorter decision cycle on the defenders. Had the USAAF been able to field B-42s in WW2, it would likely be uninterceptable by either German or Japanese air defenses.
There is another factor if you use a Mosquito recon aircraft as an extreme example. Entering enemy airspace at 300MPH cruising speed it is much faster than any LW interceptor in ground speed. The single engine fighters were only faster when they get to 30,000ft until that time they are slower, to intercept a Mosquito required a screen of aircraft covering all the possible routes it could take, it could be done and was but it needs a massive effort or some luck. By the same token, the faster any bomber formation moved the harder it was to intercept or more importantly the harder it was to bring large forces to intercept. Park used to put up screens of squadrons patrolling areas in case an attack changed direction, but there were few possibilities for the LW to attack the UK with fighter escort, only from the French Belgium coast and only to the south and south east of England. With the range and number of US daylight bombers and escorts there were many routes into Germany and the LW had important assets to defend from Normandy to Poland and down to Italy. To confront attacking bombers and escorts with numbers that matched the escorts needed the LW to have an impossible number of planes and pilots let alone fuel.
 
Just a few number to show the concept.
Fighter starts 10 miles behind the bomber at the same altitude.

Bomber speed...................time to "intercept"/320mph fighter.................340mph fighter
240mph.....................................7.5 min.........................................................................6 min
280mph....................................15.15 min....................................................................10 min
290mph.....................................20 min..........................................................................12 min
300mph.....................................30 min.......................................................................15.15 min


If the fighter has to climb up to the bombers altitude?

yes a fast bomber is better, but nobody is going to full power unless they are close to an enemy.
 
Just a few number to show the concept.
Fighter starts 10 miles behind the bomber at the same altitude.

Bomber speed...................time to "intercept"/320mph fighter.................340mph fighter
240mph.....................................7.5 min.........................................................................6 min
280mph....................................15.15 min....................................................................10 min
290mph.....................................20 min..........................................................................12 min
300mph.....................................30 min.......................................................................15.15 min


If the fighter has to climb up to the bombers altitude?

yes a fast bomber is better, but nobody is going to full power unless they are close to an enemy.

This is a good baseline to start from so thanks for posting. The assumption here is ten miles behind the bombers. So we can say depending on the bomber & fighter speed anywhere from 5 minutes for a slow bomber to 15-30 minutes to intercept a fast bomber from that distance of ten miles.

But interceptions rarely started from that close. Often the vector to the bomber location was from much further away. (This is where radar is such a big help). Often the fighters - or at least some of them, had to climb to altitude. The difference between a ten miles pursuit and a 50 mile pursuit or a 75 mile climbing pursit could be pretty close to the flight endurance of an interceptor especially flying at higher power. And the bombers, of course, do not need to spend very long over their target. So you may not have more than an 30 minutes to an hour to catch them near the target area.

A good example of this is the raids on Darwin. As we all know, among the variety of problems faced by Caldwell's Spitfires, was the confusion as to the precise location of the incoming raid, and all the time spent flying around the sky chasing them. By the time they got into position they were often either already running out of fuel or close to it. 15 minutes or half an hour doesn't sound like long but in a Spitfire or an Me 109 that is a significant percentage of their flying time.

So then before any fighting even starts, you have a combination of several factors to consider:

Target availability time (how long are they going to be in the target area)
Time before the bombers drop their payload (this is to be prevented if possible such as by breaking up their formation)
Fuel in the interceptors (how long can the fighter operate?)
Highest cruise speed of the interceptors (fighters may not be able to efficiently fly anywhere near their highest rated speed)
Optimal altitude for both (both fighters and bombers may be operating at altitude

Incidentally the Japanese did typically come in at or above 25,000 ft for most (though not all) of their raids on Darwin due to the local heavy AA (3.7 inch guns). There were also some dive bomber and fighter -strafing attacks of course.

Attacking the bombers
Once interception is made, then you have more factors to consider. If the bombers are faster, then it will take longer to set up each pass. You can fly up behind the bomber, but this is the most dangerous method especially if the bomber has adequate defensive guns. Flying up behind a formation of G4M for example was dangerous. They may have caught on fire easily and their tail gun had limited traverse and ammo etc., but it was a 20mm gun. One shell in the engine or windscreen of a pursuing fighter could take it out. Obviously this is more dangerous when attacking say, a Ki-49, Ki-67, or any of the American twin engined bombers.

There are two ways to overcome this:
If you have heavier / longer ranged guns than the bomber you are attacking, especially if it's no longer in formation - then you can out-range the defensive gunner and kill them first. This was actually a common tactic by many fighter pilots, from the Luftwaffe to the USMC.
If you are much faster than the target, you can approach by oblique angles and suddenly merge in to shoot, from above or below or just to the side. It's tricky though and still risky. And this doesn't work as well if you only have a 20 mph speed advantage.

Attacking bombers from the stern was a common approach and also cost a lot of fighter pilots lives. Many more fighters were lost than pilots, and more than that significantly damaged.

More experienced fighter pilots tried to set up attacks from the side, from below, from above, or best of all from the front. But this took more time to set up an attacking pass. Often you had to reach the target, then climb above so as to be able to dive for greater speed and / or fly past it to set up an attack run.

So we have to add that time to the "time to intercept", all against the fuel reserves of the fighter. How long does it take to set up a stern attack pass, a side attack pass, or a head on pass? In part it depends on the relative speed of the two aircraft. When under attack it was standard practice for Japanese bombers to maintain formation and go into a shallow high speed dive. Thus increasing their speed.

If it takes say, 1 minute to set up a stern attack, 3 minutes for a side attack, and 5 minutes for a head on attack, then you add that to the time to intercept (maybe as low as five or ten minutes if you were very lucky in your positioning, probably more like 30-40 minutes in many cases like at Darwin).

The faster the enemy aircraft, the longer it takes to set up each pass, the shorter time the bomber will remain in the target area, and therefore the fewer number of passes the fighter will be able to make. The more heavily armored / protected the bomber is, the greater the number of passes that will be required to shoot it down. Shooting down a B-17 takes more than one pass, typically, from a normally equipped Bf 109 or A6M than shooting down say, a D3A. The more heavily armed the bomber is, the more likely the more cautious, time-consuming type of attack-runs are going to be needed.

Then there are the escort fighters...
Though it tends to get oversimplified as a kind of either / or situation, i.e. those very rare bombers (like say, a mosquito) that can make raids unprotected, vs the helpless kind that need escorts. But the reality was far different and more of a range. A TBD Devastator turned out to be almost helpless against Zeros even when it had escorts. Same for a Fairey Battle or a Bristol Blenheim flying against the Germans. The Japanese Ki-21 was similar - if enemy fighters were able to come to grips with it, casualties were unacceptably high even with escorts.

The Russians had all kinds of statistics on this as most here know. And one of the interesting things they took note of was the loss per sortie rate of different bombers with and without heavier defensive guns. For example the single seat version of the Il-2 only survived 13 missions on average. The two seat (with a 12.7mm defensive gun) version lasted exactly twice as many at 26 (still really bad!). The much faster Pe-2 dive bomber was being lost initially at a rate of one aircraft per 20 missions. It was defended only with .30 caliber weapons. Adding a Berezin UBT 12.7mm gun in a ventral turret raised the 'official' survival rate to one aircraft per 54 missions. The difference in speed was marginal, but the added protection made a big difference, enemy fighters had to use different tactics to get them.

Contending with escorts makes all of the above time constraints more of a challenge. For one thing, some of the intercepting fighters had to deal with the escorts instead of attacking the bombers. For another, less time could be spent setting up and making attacking passes on the bomber formation.

Passes per raid
So all of this can come down to:

The number of passes that interceptors can make per raid (a factor of both bomber speed, attack altitude and available escorts)
The number of passes needed to destroy a bomber (largely a factor of armor and defensive guns on the bomber, as well as firepower of the interceptor)

A faster, better protected bomber is going to be attacked fewer times and at the same time will require more firing passes to shoot it down. When the 49th FG was defending Darwin, they developed "hit and run" tactics to minimize their own casualties and get the greatest impact on the raiding force. Their aircraft (P-40E's) struggled at 25,000 t, but they knew they could out-dive the excellent escorting fighters. So they would only make one pass and then dive away - quite far maybe 10-15,000 ft down. Meaning each group of fighters gets much fewer attacks before they could zoom back up and attack again. But they divided into flights of four, so that way they were able to continuously make attacks. The raiding Japanese bombers were of medium speed, moderately well armed and poorly protected. So a single firing pass could take one out or heavily damage it, making it susceptible to further attacks. This method proved relatively successful, as they shot down 13 "Bettys".

By contrast, for a Ki-43 or A6M to attack say, an A-20, B-25 or B-26, they are going to have to make many more passes and be much more careful due to the heavier defensive guns. As a result, in that theater at least, US twin-engined bombers had a fairly good survival rate. Even Lockheed Hudsons were able to fend off Japanese bombers on several occasions.

Over Malta, the RAF had a relatively easy time knocking down Italian SM 79s and CANT Z.1007s but struggled to take down faster, higher-flying Ju-88s.

Maneuverability

Finally, I wanted to mention that maneuverability also came into play in terms of bomber survival. Some bombers could basically use evasive dogfighting techniques to avoid being shot down by fighters. Dive bombers were usually noted for this ability - it's the main reason for the longevity of the Ju-87 in German service. They proved sitting ducks flying in giant formations in the BoB but in smaller units in the Med and on the Russian front, their ability to twist and turn when attacked using those big wings and sometimes their airbrakes, kept them from being lost in the kind of massive numbers you might expect. Same for the SBD Dauntless and the Aichi D3A. This is also typically why fighter bombers came to be preferred for a lot of purposes by the Allies. Being smaller, more agile and faster also makes for a less vulnerable target to AAA especially in low-level raids.

In the Pacific, the seemingly miraculous survival of those Lockheed Hudsons in numerous engagements probably has more to do with good low-altitude maneuverability / handling, plus some defensive and offensive firepower, that enabled them to survive.

The sweet spot
So this is i think the big challenge. It's clear (to me at least) that while speed is important, it's rarely enough to protect the bomber as a single factor. Really the Mosquito is the stand out example of this. Few other types could match it, maybe the Arado 234. Usually some protection is also needed, hence the need for defensive guns and armor. The challenge is to incorporate those with as little of a deficit to speed and performance as possible. The sweet spot between speed and protection was a very difficult needle to thread. The American designers started out making fast bombers like the Douglas A-20, the Martin Maryland, and the Martin Baltimore. These were popular with our Allies and proved effective in the field, at least for a while. But they weren't heavily armed enough over the long run. Some were up-gunned (the British put power turrets on Martin Baltimores for example) but the Americans ultimately switched to much heavier armed medium bombers and their 'fortress' like heavy bombers. But this wasn't a panacea by any means, and even ten heavy machine guns was by no means any guarantee of survival. To the contrary, by slowing these planes down with such heavy loads of crew and guns they may have made them more vulnerable.

By the end of the war the true 'schnell bombers' were arriving - jets. And postwar the only defensive guns you saw were in the tail.
 
So a slow, poorly protected, poorly armed low-flying bomber might take say 1 or 2 passes (on average) to destroy, but will be potentially vulnerable to up to 8 or 10 passes in a typical (escorted) bombing raid. So these would tend to have a very high attrition rate, even when escorted.

A fast, well protected, well-armed, high-flying bomber might require 3 or 4 passes (on average) to destroy, but may only be vulnerable to 2 or 3 passes while on a typical raid, due to the increased time required to intercept, and the increased time for setting up and executing each pass - and the longer more difficult type of passes that need to be made to overcome the defensive armament.

Whether a unit made up of either of these bomber types takes losses on a given raid would depend on the size and quality of the fighter escort, the size and quality of the interceptor force, and the number of bombers on the raid.

This way you can kind of visualize why one bomber type was less successful than another.

To that you can add the combination of bombing accuracy with bomb load, to determine how many sorties will be needed to effectively damage the target. A bomber with a fairly low survival ratio on raids plus poor bombing accuracy is a poor tool for that particular force. Depending on the value of the target, a bomber with a high attrition rate but comparatively very high accuracy can still be useful - for example Japanese carrier based bombers early in WW2. If the target is an aircraft carrier, troop transport or major warship, a high loss rate is acceptable. If the target is something like tanks or supply depots by contrast, then you really need a fairly high survival rate for the bomber to be am effective weapon.



Of course what constitutes fast, well protected, high flying and so on changed continuously through the war. In the late 1930s, say during the Spanish Civil War an SB bomber, He 111 or SM.79 was fast, fairly dangerous to attack and difficult to shoot down. By 1940 most of these were rapidly becoming obsolescent at least for use against land targets. By mid-1942 a Tactical bomber needed to be pretty well protected and / or capable of ~300 mph to be effective in land war, with a few notable exceptions like the Ju 87 and Il-2.
 
Out of typical 4 man crew of a German bomber only the pilot didn't have two jobs. The navigator bombardier and radio operator were the gunners, so when they were bombardiering navigating and radio operating they weren't shooting or looking. The bombardier had three guns.
 
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I think that kind of task sharing was fairly common on all but the largest bombers.
 
Yes, a lot of the early German bombers also had the problem that most of the crew were concentrated in a small area, so a machine gun burst or a single AAA or air to air cannon shell hitting in the right place (like in the nose gondola / cockpit of a Ju 88 or Do 17) the whole crew could be killed. There was some value in having redundant guns for a single gunner, if only because jams and stoppages were so common with all types of machine guns especially on aircraft.

Early German bombers weren't that well protected, generally. A few of them did have heavier caliber defensive guns, (He 111 had a 20mm and a 13mm gun for example, and the FW 200 maritime patrol bomber had the same combination) but for the most part they were relying on speed and performance and / or maneuverability to protect their bombers. There is no doubt that the heavier guns did help somewhat though. If you were coming up behind an He 111 in a fighter armed with only .303 LMGs you would probably notice that big HMG shooting back at you.

Mid War German bombers were a little bit better armed. Later Ju 88s had 13mm machine guns, the Do 217 had two 13mm HMG, the Ju 188 had a mix of 13mm HMG and a 20mm cannon though few of them were made, the ill fated He 177 had no less than 5 x 13mm HMGs and 2 x 20mm cannon. I think probably lessons learned there, though ultimately the design was a failure. By then they were increasingly relying on fighter bombers like Fw 190s.

Probably the best protected German aircraft was the monstrous Bolhm and Voss BV 222 float plane / patrol bomber. 5 x 13mm HMG plus 3 x 20mm cannon. They only made a dozen of them but a few were flying very hazardous supply / transport missions over the Med and survived multiple encounters. One of them even shot down a B-24 over the Bay of Biscay.

Some of the German heavy fighters and a few later bomber designs had the remote control HMG barbettes I mentioned. Famously on the Me 210, the Me 410 had pairs of 13mm defensive guns. These may not have been enough to save them in a dogfight but I have little doubt they clipped a few over-eager Allied fighter pilots with them.
 
Probably the best protected German aircraft was the monstrous Bolhm and Voss BV 222 float plane / patrol bomber. 5 x 13mm HMG plus 3 x 20mm cannon. They only made a dozen of them but a few were flying very hazardous supply / transport missions over the Med and survived multiple encounters. One of them even shot down a B-24 over the Bay of Biscay.
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How does that compare to the Short Sunderland 749 built with up to 16 mgs in three turrets and a mix of fixed forward firing and hand held beam positions.
 
Trouble for the Germans was that no two of the 3-4 guns the radio operator was responsible for on some planes pointed in the same direction. If one of the guns jammed/broke the redundancy was to try to dismount it, stow the bad gun, ( don't drop it on the guy manning the belly gun) dismount one of the other guns and remount it in the desired location.
What the extra guns did was increase the arcs of fire but the gunner had to let go of one gun, grab the next and get it on target.

I would also note that many of the German bombers that mounted a 20mm MG/FF mounted it in the nose or lower nose, gondola for offensive use while strafing. A lot of times for planes on anti shipping duties. Very few German bombers in the first few years of the war had a 20mm gun that fired to the rear.
 
The Sunderland was a beast, especially in it's role far out to the sea. I did a thread on seaplanes and floatplanes and I think Sunderland either won or was in the top 3 at least. It's too bad the Sunderland Mk IV / Seaford didn't really make it in time for the war (upgunned with .50 cal and 20mm) but even with the .303 guns, Sunderland had plenty of them and was able to tangle with Ju 88 fighters and FW 200s and Ar 196 etc. without too much stress. If the Sleaford Mods variant saw action the Germans would have been on the run.

The German bombers I mentioned (He 111 and FW 200) had 13mm dorsal guns, which is pretty intimidating if you are in a .303 inch armed fighter coming into range from behind a bomber formation. Attacking bombers head-on, as I'd mentioned before, was generally one of the preferred methods of attacking bombers, but the 20mm would certainly help dissuade that. One of the challenges for the bomber crew though is that they are in a much bigger target, the fighter may not even be in view 5 seconds before it opens fire, especially if it's attacking from the front where you have such a high closure rate. But he sees a big plane like a Condor or He 111 from further away and will be lining up his sights earlier.
 
... and because of that I do kind of think that defensive guns have a diminishing value on larger aircraft, especially if they are relatively slow.

For example speaking of flying boats, the Japanese H8K looks very tough on paper, with no less than 5 x 20mm guns and 5 x 7.7mm LMGs, and it's even quite fast for it's size at 290 mph top speed. But in practice they didn't seem too hard for USN, USMC and USAAF fighters to shoot down. One was even shot down by a B-24 though probably by surprise.
 
The German bombers I mentioned (He 111 and FW 200) had 13mm dorsal guns, which is pretty intimidating if you are in a .303 inch armed fighter coming into range from behind a bomber formation
A big problem for the Germans was that the 13 mm dorsal gun (or any German 13 mm installation) was the least powerful 13 mm gun of the war. And on many German bombers it was a hand aimed mount, at least to start, and that mount was a single mount.
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The HE 111 didn't get the 13mm gun in a fully enclosed mount until the H-11 variant. Some of the H-16s did get the 13mm in a turret. The one that was power traverse only (and then only for large moves). The early (and BoB) He 111s had a 7.9mm in the dorsal position, some may have been field converted to the 13mm I don't know.
By the time the Germans get 13mm guns in more than handfuls the British have 20mm cannon.

In any case one 13mm gun firing at 900rpm (15 rounds per second) and depending on the gunners strength for aiming is not going to be all that intimidating to a pilot with an armament capable of firing 160 rounds per second even if it is 7.7mm.

For example speaking of flying boats, the Japanese H8K looks very tough on paper, with no less than 5 x 20mm guns and 5 x 7.7mm LMGs

And here you hit the 20mm Oerlikon problem. The Japanese flexible 20mm guns were about the lowest velocity 20mm guns going (forget out ranging US .50 cal guns) and had a few other problems.
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The Japanese at least flipped the gun over so the drum/s didn't get in the way of the sights. But notice the two had grips and the shoulder pad. The gunner aimed the gun by pushing against it with his shoulder and arms. See the pivot point just in front of the magazine. Some guns were "turret" mounted but some Japanese turrets were not up to western standards.

Ki-21 with 12.7mm in dorsal turret used a set of bicycle pedals to power the traverse.
 
Worst 13mm or lowest velocity 20mm can still easily shoot down a 1940 fighter with a single hit, definitely with 3 or 4.
 

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