Did the DEPLOYMENT of the turbojet engine change the course of WW2 (1939-45) ?

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Aircraft such as the B-17E (not available to Perl harbour) or more Likely Avro Lancaster or Halifax (first service Jan 1941) would have been very usefull to the Germans as maritime reconaisance bombers. For instance I'd assert that a squadron of lancaster/halifax equivalanet bombers orbiting above the Bismark would have spoiled the King George V, Nelson and Rodney's attack on the Bismark and have given the Germans enough time to concentrate u-boats in the area. The fleet air arms Fairy Fulmars and Swordfish would be useless against that kind of aircraft.

The He 177 would take nearly another 2 years to get to a decent level of opperational reliabillity when it was ready it did rather well in attacking Soviet factories, performing some remarkable missions using Fritz-X bombs that severely disrupted Soviet Iron and Steal making. I agree that they would be useless attacking tactical targets such as concentrations of armour. However they would be make life very difficult due to their abillity to strike at targets all over the soviet union and UK and the effectiveness of guided weapons such as Hs 293 and Fritz-X. Rather than the big, highly tooled but inflexible production runs of US and British bombers I see a 4 engined He 177 entering service in Jan 1941 with DB601 engines and perhaps 800 year being produced with progressive upgrades to the point the machine turns into a 360-400mph machine powered by 4 x DB603 engines by 1944 thus remaining a difficult target for allied fighters.

I like to make the analogy of a situation in which the Germans are given 500 crewed B-29's and a production of 100 aircraft per month for free in 1944. I would say that they would all be shot down within a few months by aircraft such as the P-47D-25, P-38L, Spitfire XIV and likely Spitfire VII and Mustang P-51D or Mosquito night fighters. The allies had that many high performance aircraft and pilots they would nullify 500 B-29's in short order. What was a B-29's rear armanent going to do to a P-47? A German 4 engined bomber has to be fast and advanced and used carefully. No massed carpet bombing raids that would lead to attrition.

As far as getting a German jet engine in production 1 year early, it's possible, I think but requires a considerable rethink and change in mentality.

The Germans didn't have an alloy as good as nimonic (80% nickel 20% Chromium) and used tinidur for the jumo 004A as well as the production jumo 004B1 as far as I can tell. However the Jumo 004A engine WAS considerably more durable than the latter production versions which reflected the wider usage of this alloy in the engine as well as the higher grade fabrication by reliable skilled personel; I think kay quotes abpout 100 hours, which is more than the 50 hours of J-37 of the early P-80. The latter Jumo 004B1 used tinidur only for the gas turbine blades and the inlet guide vances. The combustion chamber cans, injector nozzles, exhaust duct, exhaust cone were all mild carbon steel and these areas caused considerable problems in reliabillity rather than just the turbine.

Also noteworthy is the fact that the German engine was almost completed stamped out of sheet metal, even the turbine, to save not only on refratroy alloys but man hours as well. AFAIKT the turbine blades of the Whittle engines were carefully machined. The attachment points were a fir tree root that distributed stresses whereas the jumo used a hoop and pin attachment that was silver soldered. The HeS 011 had the blades loose to allow movement in the manner of many modern compressors.

So its clear a different mentality was at work with enornous effort in the German camp to save material and man hours according to the Speer/Sauer directives but that this cost reliabillity and initial service entry.

Now its worth looking at the Heinkel Hirth HeS 008 which was in many ways the opposit of the Jumo 004. This engine had the same thrust but less than half the weight with parameters in terms of thrust to weight ratio, frontal area per unit thrust ratio and fuel efficiency unbeaten till 1947. It was running in 1942.

The HeS 008 was designed by Max Adolf Mueller. Ingineer Mueller had started design of the Jumo 002 at Junker airframe division however the RLM muscled in as it didn't think aiframe makers should be designing engines (even though the engine makers weren't interested) and they put the Austrian turbocharger expert Franz Anselm in charge of a program that became the Jumo 004 at the Junkers engine division. This left Mueller out of a job, so he moved over the Heinkel. Heinkel had the same problems with the RLM but Ernest Heinkel had got around it by purchasing the engine manufacturer Hirth.

The HeS (essentially the jumo 002) took a completely different approach;
1 the compressor was also axial however it was of the reaction type instead of impulse type. This made it over 10% more efficient and meant it required only 5 stages instead of 3 and so it was much shorter and lighter. The penalty was that the higher tollerances meant the blades needed some machining and the presence of axial thrust meant a thrust bearing needed to be added.
2 It used variable pitch turbine inlet nozzles.

My argument would be that by using a reaction style compressor (where the pressure is built over the stator as well as the rotor of the compressor) then the increased efficiency would have allowed a reduction in turbine inlet temperatures so as to make the hot section of the engine more reliable.

Other technical issues not really effectively addressed till 1945 were
1 The failure to develop accuate fuel control systems, a problem of allied engines as well. This is not a hard task: the compressor air mass flow has to be measured and fuel proportioned accordingly, there were many ways of achieving this and it was not worse than the fuel injection systems used in German piston engines. Overall control via centrifugal governor then trims this proportion of fuel while temperature sensors add a degree of protection. The primitve fuel control (centrifugal governor only) of the early Jumo tended to over dose fuel during engine acceleration and underdose at deaccerleration which lead to over temperatures and burnouts or flameouts as well as damaging engine life.

This, rather than alloys, I think was the main problem of the Jumo. However the tendancy to make things as simple as possible initially caused this preventable problem.

Duplex nozzles that switch to a seperate spray nozzle at low flow which is needed for stable flame combustion during idle and high altitudes also would have helped the engine, again scheduled at wars end.
 
You don't win battles by cratering the landscape. You need to put ordnance on target. That lesson should have been learned during WWI.

Dive bombers such as the Ju-87, Ju-88 and Me-210C had the accuracy to hit tactical targets. Level bombers such as the He-111 and B-17 did not.

Look up Operation Cobra - really the only time the 8thAF devoted its attention to a tactical target - Panzer Lehr - to create the necessary vacuum to break out into open country in Normandy. Killed General leslie McNair and 100+ US Troopers but turned a LOT of Panzers and crews upside down with VERY restrictive ROE.

Take that capbility to Kursk and you deny the Soviets the latitude to form up umolested away from the MLR.

Level Bombers like the He 111 did not have the capability of the B-17 or B-24 (or Lancaster). Insert any of those with capable escorts and you change the tactics of massing soviet Ground troops behind the lines.
 
Killed General leslie McNair and 100+ US Troopers but turned a LOT of Panzers and crews upside down
By July 1944 Germany didn't have a lot of panzers remaining in France....

Rick Atkinson (The Day of Battle) documents numerous occasions in Italy when American level bombers did more damage to friendly troops and equipment then they did to the Germans. I suspect the same applies to use of American and British level bombers over France during the summer of 1944. For CAS I'll take Ju-87 dive bombers over B-17 level bombers every time.
 
Just of the top of my head Zetterling notes that about 80% of the Panzers were dug out and on the move within 24 hours of the "heavy bomber attack". Considering the huge expenditure of resources under conditions of air supremacy it wasn't likely to be seen as a pragmatic effort.
 
By July 1944 Germany didn't have a lot of panzers remaining in France....

Rick Atkinson (The Day of Battle) documents numerous occasions in Italy when American level bombers did more damage to friendly troops and equipment then they did to the Germans. I suspect the same applies to use of American and British level bombers over France during the summer of 1944. For CAS I'll take Ju-87 dive bombers over B-17 level bombers every time.


The 1st Polish Armoured Division, on the first day of combat (8 August 1944) in Normandy, was bombed by allied bombers.
 
Drgondog,

Your comments also highlight a key difference between the German and British jet designs. For reasons various, the German engines were not very reliable and could only be flown for a relatively few hours before major overhaul was required (IIRC it was 25 hours but I could be mistaken). Whittle's jet design was considerably more robust, having run successfully for over 100 hours. >>

LOL comparing apple with orange mate? Ever heard about wartime material shortages?? under which Germany suffered far more than Britain as North Atlantic convoys supplied you with almost everything you needed..But it doesn't change the fact that Germans were ahead in jet propulsion technology ,not only they flew two years earlier
that Whittle,they also built the first axial flow turbojet pioneered by the Frenchman Maxime Guillaume back in 1921.
 
LOL comparing apple with orange mate? Ever heard about wartime material shortages?? under which Germany suffered far more than Britain as North Atlantic convoys supplied you with almost everything you needed..But it doesn't change the fact that Germans were ahead in jet propulsion technology ,not only they flew two years earlier that Whittle,they also built the first axial flow turbojet pioneered by the Frenchman Maxime Guillaume back in 1921.

Errr...well, the Atlantic convoys from the US provided, at absolute maximum, 25% of Britain's war materiel so not sure that equates to "everything" Britain needed. In case you didn't notice, Britain was hardly repleat with resources particularly at the time Whittle was perfecting his design - he had to fight tooth and nail for everything he needed to prove to the many doubters that his concepts were sound. Given that Germany did have a head start, it could be argued that the worst of wartime shortages shouldn't have impacted their jet development programme which was pretty much complete before things started going really, REALLY badly in the Fatherland (and even then Me262s kept being produced).

The fact that Germany had been succeeding for longer than Britain at developing jet engines makes it all the more surprising that their reliability was so poor in comparison with Whittle's jets. No point having the coolest toy on the street if it breaks every time you play with it. In my business, we call that kind of capability "lab-ware" - works great in the lab but can't hack it in the operational environment. Ask any pilot and they'll tell you they'd rather have an aircraft with slightly poorer performance that they could rely on than a highly-strung, cutting-edge airframe that they can't trust because it keeps failing.
 
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>>

LOL comparing apple with orange mate? Ever heard about wartime material shortages?? under which Germany suffered far more than Britain as North Atlantic convoys supplied you with almost everything you needed..But it doesn't change the fact that Germans were ahead in jet propulsion technology ,not only they flew two years earlier
that Whittle,they also built the first axial flow turbojet pioneered by the Frenchman Maxime Guillaume back in 1921.

The two planes were operational at almost exactly the same time, the meteor made operational to counter the V1 but we had many other marques capable of that. Britain had no need to rush the meteor into service and since it cant reach Germany what do we do with it? As I remember from what I read it the USA metallurgists were impressed with the development of alloys for jet engines in the UK bearing in mind the limited resources of people and equipment needed. The axial flow type is the basis of most modern jets but not all i believe that reverse flow types are used in helicopters. The problems are in the materials, heat dissipation and flame stability from what I have read.

In answer to the original post you could say even the deployment of the US Air force didnt change the course of the war apart from fewer Germans learning Russian after 1945. The 262 caused problems for the mustang escorts but it was not unbeatable especially at take off and landing, the may have scared bomber crews rigid but didnt stop any raids.
 
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In my opinion, the Germans made a critical mistake in pursuing the axial turbojet engines in lieu of the centrifugal engines as the Brits, and Americans, both of which were also developing axial engines, did. The axial flow engines were much more complex with multiple compressor and stator stages and extended shaft lengths, and while being the engine design of the future, needed much more development effort. Also, thrust to weight was poor. Surprisingly, thanks to initial British designs, the US was the first to run a 4000 lb thrust engine (GE I-40/J33) in Feb., 1944, the British ran the 4000 lb thrust Nene in Oct, '44. As far as I know, the Germans never ran an engine that developed 4000 lbs thrust, in fact, I don't believe the Germans ever ran an engine developing much over 2500 lb thrust. Had the Germans developed the centrifugal engine, IMO there no reason that they could not have had a production ready 4-5000 lb thrust engine by early 1943 and a massed produced straight wing jet like the FJ-1 or P-80 operational by late '43 early '44, and this could have had a major impact on the war by sweeping the B-17/24s from the day sky as the Migs did to the B-29s in 1950. Also, depending on their desire, with their knowledge of swept wing aerodynamics, they could have fielded a Mig-15 equivalent aircraft by 1945. They did indeed have all the aero knowledge and means to do this, but they did not have the engines.
 

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