Discussion of best exploitable A/C strengths

Bad-Karma said:

Bump for any info.

I was reading in another thread from member Renrich:

What exactly would the "roll maneuver" in this case be? I'm trying to visualize this scenario and I can't really see how a roll would get the p47 away from a spit.

Click to expand...

Bad Karma,

There are two possibilities to what he meant by the roll maneuver. Both I'm guessing are in the higher speed regime, with the first one being abrupt heading changes. If one A/C could roll noticeably faster than the other, just as a guy was getting into a gun solution the defender could do a 30-90 degree abrupt heading change. If the following / offender is a "slow roller" he would flush outside the flight path of the defender, allowing the defender to open up or increase the distance between the two A/C (forces the offender into a lag position or flight path). This works only at closer range, and is n/a once outside the offenders weapons range. The second way might be a loaded barrel roll. At higher speeds it might be that the T-bolt handled this better than the Spit, again forcing the offender into a flight path outside the defenders / lag pursuit, again allowing the distance to open between the A/C. This maneuver would not be a complete roll as this barrel roll is usually done to overshoot an offender if done properly.

Again this is my opinion, but remember thinking this when I read that passage in his book.

Cheers,
Biff

One question I have on dive limits regarding the mock combat between the Spitfire P-47: if the Spitfire has a much higher Mach limit and acceleration than the P-47, why is it that the P-47 could outdive it (and countless Bf-109s as well)? I understand that the P-47 was kind of mid-field in Mach limits, and its acceleration was probably average as well, at least until water injection paddle-blade props.

In level the flight the P-47 may have had mid-level acceleration (trying to get all that weight moving) , in a dive it had gravity assist (all that weight wants to return to earth

Very few planes actually used anywhere near full power in a dive. The propeller actually "drove" the engine/s in some cases (or at least the prop had very little load on it) and the engine/s could very easily overspeed and had to be throttled back to prevent damage. In some cases engines were allowed around 20% overspeed in a dive but at throttle openings as low as 1/4 full throttle.

A couple I can think of off the top of my head

Spitfire:
Generally slower to accelerate in a dive than most European theater fighters, although the difference wasn't that pronounced.
Early marks had a float carburetor, so suffered negative G cut out when pushing over. Rectified progressively through the series.
Early marks also had slow rate of roll at high speed, due to ballooning of fabric covered ailerons. Fortunately, the main opposition at the time had much the same problem.
Generally a little slower than opposition under 10-12,000 ft.


Hurricane:
Even slower to accelerate in a dive than the Spitfire.
Poor speed at low level.

A6M:
Early marks have very limited dive speeds due to too thin wing skinning.
All A6Ms rolled very poorly above about 275-300 mph IAS, due to large, fabric covered ailerons.

Ki-44:
Tendency to go into a flick/snap stall in high speed turns and had a nasty spin when stalled
High stall speed due to small wings

FW 190:
Engine started to pant at about 20,000 ft, so fighter was out of its element by about 25,000 ft or so.
High stall speed and an abrupt stall.

P-47:
Something of the reverse of the FW-190, its engine was bred for high altitude so it was recommended not to dog fight in one under 16,000 ft. However, US test flying found the aircraft gained back some ground at very low level.

Hawker Typhoon:
Like the FW-190, its engine (and also its wing planform) were ill-suited to high altitude combat.

P-40:
Had a tendency to roll in one direction (I think to the right) in a dive, making it difficult to keep steady and aim.
Rudder and elevator forces were quite high
Slow in the climb, although quite a reasonable zoom climber.