Discussion of best exploitable A/C strengths

[Bad-Karma]

All good points. The P-51 driver was always conscious of having enough fuel to get home - were stingy about getting all they could out of the external tanks before tapping internal. SOP was to warm up and take off with left main, switch to fuselage tank to burn 15-25 gallons (max) and then drive on the externals, switch back and forth for trim, until they were dry or got into a fight. Many pilots did Not use the internal fuselage tank until the externals were dropped and had to be careful about engaging in high G maneuver fight. In only one case of my father's seven air victory credits was his internal fuel burned down to any significant degree - and fortunately it was against an opponent where the fuel load shrinkage potentially made a difference. That was a Berlin mission and the fight was sw of Hamburg on the return. By that time all the fuselage tank had probably been burned down plus more of the Mains.

This is more a general question but has anyone read any german pilot ace accounts that included any type of tactics they would employ against allied fighters?

 

[GrauGeist]

Hey Guys, sorry for falling off this thread, my first born daughter came a little earlier than anticipated on Aug 16th at 6 pounds 3 ounces .

Congrats!!

This is more a general question but has anyone read any german pilot ace accounts that included any type of tactics they would employ against allied fighters?

There are quite a few books of the Luftwaffe Experten, that cover the details of their experiences and tactics: Erich Hartmann, Gerhard Barkhorn, Hermann Graf, Adolf Galland, Gunther Rall, Heinz Bär, Otto Kittel, Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer, Wilhelm Batz and so on...

 

[Bad-Karma]

Congrats!!


There are quite a few books of the Luftwaffe Experten, that cover the details of their experiences and tactics: Erich Hartmann, Gerhard Barkhorn, Hermann Graf, Adolf Galland, Gunther Rall, Heinz Bär, Otto Kittel, Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer, Wilhelm Batz and so on...

Congrats!!


Sorry I should have been more specific. For anyone who has read multiple books is there any sort of pattern or specifics to the tactics used?

 

[tomo pauk]

Hey Guys, sorry for falling off this thread, my first born daughter came a little earlier than anticipated on Aug 16th at 6 pounds 3 ounces .

On topic though this is a very good point. Im curious though as to why it seems to be a popular opinion that German pilots didn't respect the p38 as much as the p47 or p51 given the rarity of an equal fight. It would seem all of those planes are very close in performance.

Congrats for the newborn

The P-38 have had it's own set of problems. All versions were slow rollers when on lower speed, and only the -L possessed a good rate of roll when on high speed. The low rate of roll was recognized as a serious issue as early as North African campaign, both by friend and foe.
It's performance was not significantly better than what LW have had, bar against the overly heavy Fw-190 sub-types or gunboat Bf-109s. Under 20000 ft, the LW have had the edge in performance. The P-47 was loathed by LW as early as 1943, provided the combat will take place above 20000 ft; the P-51 have had clear performance edge against both 190 and 109.
The not-so-thin wings of the P-38, combined with venturi effect created by central pod and nacelles, meant that compressibility was an early and a major issue, so P-38 pilot was not in a good position to catch the LW fighter that dives down to safety from really high altitudes, say above 20-25 thousand ft. The introduction of dive flaps somewhat cured that, but it was too late to matter.
The badly executed cabin heater meant that P-38 pilots were half frozen after a some time at high altitudes, again this was rectified with P-38L. So was the lack of the second generator, the engine-out situation with a wrong engine meant that battery will be soon depleted too.
The insufficiently dimensioned intercoolers were limiting the engine power prior the P-38J was introduced.
New, more efficient intercoolers were in the middle of engine problems: wrong cruise engine setting in the ETO (high rpm, low boost, instead vice versa), combined with low temperatures at high alt and European winter, combined with not the best layout of intake pipe of the contemporary V-1710 (cure introduced from Autumn of 1943 in newly produced engines USA, from early 1944 overseas) meant that engine was receiving not a sprayed fuel in the air of 'good' temperature, but droplets of fuel within a cold air = blown engines in mid air.
(nothing to do with 'British fuel'; it was easier to blame the British than 'our boys')
The complicated procedures in a complicated cockpit just made the things worse for the USAF pilots.

 

[Balljoint]

The P-38 fuel freezing problem was mostly design and operating parameters. But British fuel was heavy on benzol that alone froze at 40° F. Good fuel for the Merlin. Not so much for the early P-38 Alison.

 

[Shortround6]

The P-38s didn't have a problem with "British" fuel until 1943. In 1941 the British and Americans had agreed on a common fuel specification for 100/130 fuel. This specification was changed several times as the war went on. But the specification was the same for both countries.

in 1940 and 1941 there was a major difference between American and British 100 octane fuel. Not in 1943. Since the vast majority of 100/130 fuel came from the US (or west indies/Caribbean) it is a bit hard to come up with "British" fuel. There were a few refineries in England. However not ALL American fuel was identical, far from it. Different refineries used different blends of compounds, sometimes in different batches so even refinery "A" wasn't making the same fuel in March that it was in Jan depending on the availability of of certain compounds. Throw in refineries "B" through "Z" and it is surprising there weren't more problems.
Allison was aware of a potential problem with the relaxed 100/130 standard in early 1943 (it was still 100/130 but the volatility, especially at cooler temperatures couldchange from batch to batch) and started work on the new intake manifold.
The "British" fuel myth comes in as the different climate conditions and flight profiles used in Western Europe, as compared to North Africa, Italy, the Pacific and CBI theaters made the problem worse. Since it wasn't happening elsewhere (at least enough to really notice) it must be that lousy "British" fuel, right?
And it didn't happen with ALL fuel batches.

100/150 was "British" fuel. the US used it but the US never really put out a 'standard' for it.

 

[Njaco]

Sorry I should have been more specific. For anyone who has read multiple books is there any sort of pattern or specifics to the tactics used?

Surprise.

 

[Bad-Karma]

Surprise.

So you would argue that their experience allowed them to position themselves more effectively to surprise the allied fighters?

I was just curious if they had developed anything like our Thach Weave or some other type of tactic that was particularly effective against our fighters.

 

[GrauGeist]

...is there any sort of pattern or specifics to the tactics used?

Yes, the Luftwaffe employed a good number of tactics and as the fortunes of war turned against them, they adapted their tactics to reflect their loss of aerial advantage.

Here is a real good excerpt from a book, "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" by Mike Spick that covers a great deal of their tactics and why they chose to employ them:

Basic Fighter Maneuvers:

German fighter pilots were taught standard maneuvers for fighter vs. fighter combat. Aerobatics played little or no part in these; in the main, they involved hard turning to get on the tail of an opponent. But while turning ability is important to a fighter, it was not an absolute! Both radius and rate of turn are functions of speed: as speed increases, so the radius of turn widens, while the rate of turns (measured in degrees) decreases. All else being equal (which it seldom is) the slower aircraft will generally out-turn the faster.

Attacks were generally launched from a higher altitude, often from the glare of the sun. Mostly, the attacks took the form of a curve of pursuit which brought the attacker in behind his opponent. If the attacker remained unseen and his shooting was accurate, a victory was very probable. If, however, the attacker was seen coming in, his opponent took evasive action and the fight was on.

The basic evasive maneuver was the "break". In this, the defending aircraft turned as hard as possible in the direction of the attacker, who only rarely would be dead from astern. This rapidly increased the deflection angle, giving the attacker the most difficult shot possible. If the turn capabilities of the two aircraft were fairly similar, and the speed difference was not too great, they would then enter the classic turning fight, with each trying to out-turn the other to achieve a firing position. As hard turning bled off speed, the circles turned into a downward spiral. This ended only when another aircraft intervened, or the lower one was forced to pull out by the proximity of the ground.

As the attacker was often moving considerable faster then his opponent in order to close the range quickly, he would frequently be unable to hold position on the inside of the turn and would overshoot to the outside. This gave the defender a chance to turn the tables by reversing the direction of his turn back towards his opponent. At this point the original attacker could reverse his own turn. A series of turn reversals then ensued, known as the "scissors", in which both aircraft tried to gain a position astern, with the advantage going to the most maneuverable aircraft. In the scissors, a faster "rate-of-roll" was often more an advantage then turning ability, as it allowed changes of direction to made very quickly.

Once the attacker overshot, he had two alternatives to entering a scissors, both using his speed advantage: he could dive away out of range, or he could pull up, converting his excess speed into altitude. An aileron turn in the vertical climb allowed him to reposition himself, pulling out into level flight in any direction he chose, ready for another diving attack. The modern name for this manuever is the "Immelmann Turn". Alternatively, he could stall-turn at the top of his climb and launch into another diving attack (hammerhead). These were the tricks on which all fighter combat was based.


THE BREAK:

The standard procedure when attacked from astern was to turn as hard as possible in the direction of the attacker. This gave a difficult deflection shot, and if the attacker had a speed advantage it frequently caused him to overshot.


THE SCISSORS:

Once the break forced an attacker to overshoot, a series of turn reversals, known as the scissors, could force the attacker out in front. This is not recommended against a better turning aircraft, unless his speed advantage is excessive enough to increase his turn radius, and/or your aircraft has a superior rate of roll.


THE IMMELMANN TURN:

Named after the first World War ace Max Immelmann, this maneuver allows a fighter pilot to reposition without much horizontal displacement. The fighter pulls up vertically, aileron turns in the desired direction, then pulls out and rolls upright.


THE SANDWICH:

Any fighter attacking a German Rotte was liable to be sandwiched if it followed the targeted German into his break maneuver. This was made easy by the wide spacing and almost abreast positioning of the German Rotte. The targeted German breaks away from his fellow rottenflieger who is likewise breaking in the same direction, thus swinging onto the tail of the attacker and effectively sandwiching him. The typical Schwarm formation consisted of two Rotten with about 180m spacing between the aircraft. This allowed all pilots to keep a look-out without fear of collision. To turn through 90 degrees, the fighter on the outside pulled up and turned above the one nearest to it. The others followed in sequence, rolling out on to the new heading with formation integrity intact.

The fact that the Schwarm formation consisted of a right-handed fingerfour formation into a left-handed fingerfour formation after the 90 degree crossover turn was normal. The Rottenflieger on the sun side of the formation would position himself/themselves below the Schwarmfuehrer so the others could locate him/them without having to look into the sun. The Schwarm was called the "fingerfour" by the Western Allies because the aircraft positions within the Schwarm looked like the fingers of an outstretched hand.


THE DECOY:

The decoy, a solitary aircraft looking vulnerable in the presence of enemy fighters while covered by friends above, was widely used by the Luftwaffe until late 1943. Large numbers of high-performance enemy fighters soon made this tactic suicidal.


CURVE OF PURSUIT:

The favored attack from astern almost invariably involved a curve-of-pursuit to take the attacker from his start-point to a firing-position. Usually done by keeping one's nose on the target, this normally resulted in a tail chase. A far better method was to keep the target at a constant angle through the windshield sidelight until the range closed.


UP AND UNDER ATTACK:

The vast majority of Adolf Galland's victories (and many other Experten) came by this means. A steep plunge from astern was followed by an attack coming up in the blind spot astern and below. While not specifically stated, this was best made from a few degrees to the right; the average fighter pilot, his left hand on the throttle and his right on the stick, could look over his left shoulder more easily then his right.

 

[GrauGeist]

To continue the tactics employed by the Luftwaffe:

DEFLECTION SHOOTING:

Deflection Shot bullets took some time to cover the distance to the target, by which time it was no longer there. Deflection shooting is the art of aiming ahead of the target, so that it arrived in the same place and the same time as the bullets. Russian Front Experten Guenther Rall was widely considered the best deflection shot in the Jagdwaffe. Most Experten preached the method of closing in so close that the target filled in the Revi gun sight before shooting, however. This reduced the chance of missing the shot as well as the amount of ammo required to make the kill.


VECTOR ROLL ATTACK:

Superiority in the rolling plane could be used to defeat a better-turning opponent. Rolling away from the direction of the turn allowed the pursuing fighter to cut the corner. This was, however, a double-edged sword: American P-47 Thunderbolts often used the Vector Roll against Bf109's.


BOXING:

Boxing was standard whenever the Germans had greater numbers in an engagement, notably over Malta. It could be done two-vs-one, or by a large formation against a small formation. Directly the attack went in, the defenders broke into it, only to have the second aircraft or group on their tail(s). This is the reverse of the sandwich maneuver.


AGAINST BOMBER ELEMENTS:

Egon Mayer and Georg-Peter Eder of JG2 developed this method of attacking US heavy bomber formations. Having tailed them to establish exact course, altitude and speed, they then moved to a safe distance on the flank and overtook them. Having gained a lead of about 3,500m, the German fighters turned in for a head-on pass.

Combined closing speeds made attacking heavy bombers from a head-on a frightening experience.


ERICH HARTMANN'S "LAST DITCH" EVASION MANEUVER:

As the enemy fighter approached, Hartmann used his rudder to point his fighter in a slightly different direction from the way it was going, to mislead the attacker into misjudge the amount of deflection required. When his attacker opened fire, Hartmann slammed the stick in the far corner of the cockpit, putting his Messerschmitt into the first half of an oblique loop. In his words: "Fly quickly straight ahead and push the rudder so you fly straight ahead but the skid will not be recognized by the attacker. IF he opens fire, you push for negative G's down left or right, not forgetting through the whole maneuver to push the rudder. Your attacker will hang with negative G's in his belt, unable to pull the trigger. With that maneuver, I saved my life several times."


THE SPIRAL CLIMB: (Mainly Bf109 Maneuver)

Heinz Knocke of JG1 was one of the many German fighter pilots to use the spiral climb as a means of evading American escorts. With the angle and distance constantly changing, it made his Messerschmitt an almost impossible target. The spiral dive was an alternative, for the same reasons. It's not really a barrel-roll style of an upwards spiral, but rather, more like the rolling-scissors with the spiral tightening the slower you become. Roll-out and build a little speed in a shallow chandelle to climb away from the enemy.


THE ROLLER- COASTER ATTACK:

To attack US bomber formations, Me262 pilots started from a position high astern. A shallow high-speed dive took them through the escorts to a point 1,500m astern the bombers and 500m below them. At this point they pulled up to dump speed and carried out a conventional rear attack before breaking off downwards.

 

[bobbysocks]

another tactic i remember hartmann saying is when he was in a tight turning battle he would wait until he thought the EA on his tail had pulled enough lead on him and was ready to shoot. he said at that point to get a goos gun solution the nose of the pursuing ac blocked that pilot from seeing him as he was pulling so much lead. hartmann would kick hard rudder and roll away from the attacker...who now was chasing a ghost.

 

[GrauGeist]

The master of deflection shooting was Hans-Joachim Marseille, who also mastered the inside turn by slowing his aircraft considerably, almost to the point of stalling, in order to get inside of a turning adversary.

 

[Bad-Karma]

The master of deflection shooting was Hans-Joachim Marseille, who also mastered the inside turn by slowing his aircraft considerably, almost to the point of stalling, in order to get inside of a turning adversary.

Thank you very much for posting all of that. Very interesting to read. One question though is a Vector Roll the same as a Rollaway?

 

[tomo pauk]

Great stuff there, GG. Many thanks

 

[wiking85]

The master of deflection shooting was Hans-Joachim Marseille, who also mastered the inside turn by slowing his aircraft considerably, almost to the point of stalling, in order to get inside of a turning adversary.

Haven't a lot of his kill claims been challenged, indicating that while he could maneuver well and survive, he wasn't able to connect well in those turning fights?

 

[Bad-Karma]

I know this sounds random but why is the p51 b-15 with malcom hood considered to be better than the d? I saw those comments in another thread but didn't want to bump it if I could get an answer here. Drgondog I think it was your comments that I was reading in the p51 vs f6f thread.

 

[GrauGeist]

Haven't a lot of his kill claims been challenged, indicating that while he could maneuver well and survive, he wasn't able to connect well in those turning fights?

Some of his claims have been challenged (as is the case with just about any other Ace with high counts) but no one questions his ability to make the Bf109 perform like a Ballet artist.

 

[davparlr]

I know this sounds random but why is the p51 b-15 with malcom hood considered to be better than the d? I saw those comments in another thread but didn't want to bump it if I could get an answer here. Drgondog I think it was your comments that I was reading in the p51 vs f6f thread.

The P-51B was lighter and slightly cleaner than the P-51D so performed slightly better and was slightly faster (it was equivalent to the Fw190D-9 at low altitude and superior at high altitude). Due to this many pilots preferred the B even with two less guns. The Malcolm hood improved the one major issue with the B and that was pilot visibility with little impact to aerodynamics (I would guess).

 

[fastmongrel]

I have read that some pilots thought visibility with the Malcolm hood was better than the D in all directions particulary looking down and to the rear. Possibly because the Malcolm hood looks like it has a lower edge than the D hood.

 

[Hop]

But British fuel was heavy on benzol that alone froze at 40° F. Good fuel for the Merlin. Not so much for the early P-38 Alison.

I believe by 1943 nearly all the aviation fuel used in the UK was imported from the US or US controlled sites in the Caribbean.

In the summer of 1943 the US changed the formulation of 100/130 fuel in order to increase production. They increased the lead content from 4.8 cc per imperial gallon to 5.5 cc. When the first batches of that fuel arrived in the UK it was tested and found to cause problems in Allison engines:

Allison engines cannot use it and tests so far conducted indicate that the engine itself cannot digest 5.5 cc fuel. Considerable further test data is therefore required both on engine and plugs.