Ditch or Parachute

[Glider]

There is another thread here similar to this one and I posted several excerpts from Pilot's Notes which advised pilots/crews which was the safer option. Its in the back section of most Notes

The only plane I flew in (as a passenger) over water was a Hunter and the Pilots notes regarding ditching might as well have said Don't do it

Exact Words Model tests of a clean aircraft indicate that a ditching in any but ideal conditions would be very hazardous.

 

[MikeMeech]

I think there was something about the RAF harness, if you couldn't release it straight away the water tightened it all up, and of course, not many people could swim at the time.

Hi
Have you a source for that statement it sounds a bit odd.
The US 8th Air Force did have some problems generally with their parachutes as:
", ... in June 1943 the 8th Air Force Central Medical Establishment recommended that all bomber crews wear the RAF quick-release harness and Observer chest-pack parachuite until better types were forthcoming from the USA. The advantages were that the harness could be worn at all times and in one operation could be completely and quickly removed; both the parachute and dingy packs were quickly attached to it by simple snap hooks." ('The Mighty Eighth War Manual' by Roger A Freeman, page 248).
On the same page it mentions that the British K type one man dingy was used in the 'C type pack' by all VIII FC fighters, a US model only became available early in 1945.

It is known that some Coastal Command crews did not bother with parachutes due to their missions being at low level (eg Strike Wings) and they would never be high enough to use them. If hit badly their aircraft would 'alight' on the sea quite quickly so a parachute would just be a useless encumbrance to any 'escape'.

Mike

 

[pbehn]

Hi
Have you a source for that statement it sounds a bit odd.
The US 8th Air Force did have some problems generally with their parachutes as:
", ... in June 1943 the 8th Air Force Central Medical Establishment recommended that all bomber crews wear the RAF quick-release harness and Observer chest-pack parachuite until better types were forthcoming from the USA. The advantages were that the harness could be worn at all times and in one operation could be completely and quickly removed; both the parachute and dingy packs were quickly attached to it by simple snap hooks." ('The Mighty Eighth War Manual' by Roger A Freeman, page 248).
On the same page it mentions that the British K type one man dingy was used in the 'C type pack' by all VIII FC fighters, a US model only became available early in 1945.

It is known that some Coastal Command crews did not bother with parachutes due to their missions being at low level (eg Strike Wings) and they would never be high enough to use them. If hit badly their aircraft would 'alight' on the sea quite quickly so a parachute would just be a useless encumbrance to any 'escape'.

Mike

Oh I wasnt saying others were better or the RAF one was particularly "bad". From pilots who baled out into the North Sea it was a common remark that the harness that released easily on land suddenly became difficult in the north sea and the sensation of it tightening up was also very common.

 

[pbehn]

The only plane I flew in (as a passenger) over water was a Hunter and the Pilots notes regarding ditching might as well have said Don't do it

Exact Words Model tests of a clean aircraft indicate that a ditching in any but ideal conditions would be very hazardous.

But having seen the footage of the Shoreham air crash and seen the outcome of the Hudson river miracle anything is possible.

 

[ClayO]

I wonder how many TBF/TBM gunners made it out of the turret, either bailing out or ditching? Having to climb out of that thing, strap on a parachute and exit out the back door must have been an ordeal - especially on a glide bombing run, where there wouldn't be much time.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I recall my Uncle (USN submariner, PTO) mentioning that they rescued more pilots/crew that ditched than they did parachuting.
It seems that quite a few drowned because of the parachute - I never heard why. Perhaps being in the water made it more cumbersome to get out of the harness?

And any delay getting out of your harness means you're saddled with some more waterlogged cloth than simply what you're wearing. And water is heavy.

 

[space dodo]

I recall my Uncle (USN submariner, PTO) mentioning that they rescued more pilots/crew that ditched than they did parachuting.
It seems that quite a few drowned because of the parachute - I never heard why. Perhaps being in the water made it more cumbersome to get out of the harness

if a parachute gets rapped around you it can pull you under and drown you with ease cause it creates a kind of under water sail

 

[pbehn]

if a parachute gets rapped around you it can pull you under and drown you with ease cause it creates a kind of under water sail

If your head goes under the water and there is a silk parachute on the surface I think it will suffocate you and cling to any part of you that breaks the surface of the water.

 

[NVSMITH]

Quite a few qualified Airborne troops have drowned from water landings, even during "Hollywood" jumps made without the weight and awkwardness of weapons and tactical gear. One occurred at my last duty station; the jumper missed the DZ, landed in a shallow pond and drowned during such a Hollywood jump. This was about 2004-2005 when one could reasonably expect all quick release safety features had been incorporated. Given that most aviators have never made a jump I think that ditching would seem to be preferred.

 

[Joe Broady]

I wonder how many TBF/TBM gunners made it out of the turret, either bailing out or ditching?

One of the turret side panels would quickly release for emergency egress. "In case of crash landing or ditching, or for quick exit in some other emergency, PUSH the handle at the gunner's right side AFT and push the circular hatch OUTBOARD.

"This exit cannot be used in flight, because the gunner does not wear his parachute attached."

Source: "Pilot's Handbook of Flight Operating Instructions, Navy Model TBM-3 Airplane," 1 November 1945. Curiously, the Emergency Operations section gives guidance for ditching but says nothing about bailing out.

 

[denoferth]

My crew training included wearing the "survival suit", jumping off the tower to experience opening shock, releasing the dingy and survival kit on a lanyard into the water of the Ft Devens lake before opening the safety covers on the shoulder harness. Then we put our thumbs through the wire loops that had popped out from under the covers and pulled. That released the risers and dropped us the remaining 10 - 12 feet into the lake. We then had to demonstrate climbing into the dingy (after closing the safety covers to prevent puncturing the dingy), unstowing the paddle, and moving out of the area for the next victim to drop. We were then towed at speed behind a boat to practice making an air cavity in the water in order to breath simulating a landing in high winds. My training took place right after a pilot had ejected at night who, misjudging his height above the water, released his harness way too high and fell to his death. After all that great fun the AF, in their infinite wisdom, didn't let us do an actual jump to the neverending amusement of my army brother and his wife, both jump certified. The one time (out of many IFE's) we might have of got our catapiller club pin was from a burning NC-130A over Hanscom Fld when after lowering the ramp and seeing the highways, power-lines, ponds, bogs, factory roofs going by at pattern height we voted to ride the thing down. I regret it to this day. Cluck, cluck.

 

[pararaftanr2]

I have this question: Navy pilots of world war ll in the Pacific when something went wrong with their airplane did these pilots generally ditch with their planes or did they parachute out?

As others have mentioned, it would depend on the circumstances, which could vary greatly. Navy fliers were trained for emergencies such as ditching or parachuting, although they did not make live practice parachute jumps. Part of pilot training included time in the "Dilbert Dunker" to practice escaping from a plane upside down in water. Torpedo bomber crews, for example, would have practiced escaping from their ditched aircraft and deploying the plane's raft. All would be instructed how to make a safe water landing by releasing the chest and leg straps of the harness when descending over water and jumping from the harness about 10 feet above the surface to avoid entanglement with the canopy. If worn, the pararaft and survival kit backpad were attached to the flier, not to his parachute harness.

 

[emu27]

The P-51 manual says that ditching should only be done as a last resort, only to be done if you don't have sufficient height to parachute out. The Spitfire gives the same advice because of its poor ditching characteristics, the Avenger manual says it has good ditching characteristics. At the end of the day it depends on the type of aircraft, but some times circumstances don't leave you with choices.

 

[pararaftanr2]

The P-51 manual says that ditching should only be done as a last resort, only to be done if you don't have sufficient height to parachute out. The Spitfire gives the same advice because of its poor ditching characteristics, the Avenger manual says it has good ditching characteristics. At the end of the day it depends on the type of aircraft, but some times circumstances don't leave you with choices.

Very true. it should be noted that the original question was about Navy pilots in the Pacific, so all of the carrier aircraft they would have been flying were single engine radials with mid, or low wing configuration and all of them had pretty "good ditching characteristics". They could also lower their tail hook, even with the wheels up, to help them better judge the last few feet above the ocean's surface when ditching, something a plane designed to be purely land based could not do. Anecdotal evidence also indicated the Avenger may have typically remained afloat a bit longer than the other types after ditching, as seen below.

 

[GrauGeist]

Many USN aircraft had the ability to remain afloat for a substantial amount of time after ditching unlike Army types, which were known to sink in a much shorter amount of time.

 

[ClayO]

Very true. it should be noted that the original question was about Navy pilots in the Pacific, so all of the carrier aircraft they would have been flying were single engine radials with mid, or low wing configuration and all of them had pretty "good ditching characteristics". They could also lower their tail hook, even with the wheels up, to help them better judge the last few feet above the ocean's surface when ditching, something a plane designed to be purely land based could not do. Anecdotal evidence also indicated the Avenger may have typically remained afloat a bit longer than the other types after ditching, as seen below.

View attachment 632859View attachment 632860

Great shots! The first picture clearly shows the escape hatch that Joe Broady mentioned. They must have ditched right beside a ship to get such clear shots. Do you know how these pictures were taken?

 

[pararaftanr2]

Great shots! The first picture clearly shows the escape hatch that Joe Broady mentioned. They must have ditched right beside a ship to get such clear shots. Do you know how these pictures were taken?

Yes, they made water landings after their unsuccessful launches and were photographed from the carrier deck as it went by.

 

[pararaftanr2]

I wonder how many TBF/TBM gunners made it out of the turret, either bailing out or ditching? Having to climb out of that thing, strap on a parachute and exit out the back door must have been an ordeal - especially on a glide bombing run, where there wouldn't be much time.

Below is a chart from a TBM (General Motors built) Avenger manual, showing the exits for ditching or bailing out. Both the turret gunner and radioman were equipped with type QAC (quick attachable chest) parachutes. The harness was worn and the parachute pack, that clipped onto the chest, was stowed next to the emergency exit door.

 

[Airframes]

Regarding the British WW2 parachute harness, and the quick release system. This has changed little since WW2, and I don't know of any problems arising from the harness becoming tighter when immersed in water - the quick release box should work just as effectively.
However, up until late war ( possibly soon after ), the circular catch release on the box was plain, that is, with a smooth, completely circular face, and a non-milled circumference edge.
This could cause a problem as, with wet and freezing hands, it could be very difficult or impossible to turn and press the catch before being dragged under by the parachute canopy filling with water.
The disc on the front of the quick release box was later re-designed, to have a "flat" edge on part of the circumference, breaking the complete circular shape, and the edges milled. This allowed more grip, especially with frozen fingers.
British Airborne troops are taught, during their basic para course, how to cope with water landings.
The para's harness is slightly different to that of aircrew, although essentially very similar, including the quick release box. However, it also incorporates a "seat strap".
The drill for landing in water is to either jettison the chest mounted reserve chute, or at least, undo one side of the retaining snap hooks, to let the pack "dangle" out of the way. Next, "shuffle" into the seat strap, and cross one arm across the chest, to firmly grip the lift web (riser) on the opposite side of the body.
With a firm grip established, reach down with the free hand, turn and punch the quick release box, and clear the freed leg straps from between the legs. Immediately move the free hand to firmly grasp the lift web on the opposite side, and hang on tight for the remainder of the descent.
When the feet touch the water, arch the back and raise both arms, and the jumper will fall clear of the harness which, with the canopy, should float away clear enough, before settling on the water, if not blown away by any wind.
I've done this twice, once into a cold lake, and once into the very cold sea, and the drill worked as intended.
Of course, the current para's harness now has a "cut away" system, using "Velcro", not unlike modern free-fall sport rigs, where the canopy ( and the complete harness ) can be freed if needed.

 

[Glider]

The one thing I can remember when flying navy gliders was that the parachute had a quick release box which you turned to release as did the seat strap. We were always warned to check that the one you released first, was the seat strap. I did once get into a situation where I was almost certain that the glider was going to break up and I kept my left hand on the seat release box the entire time.