DO-335 VS TA-152

[SoD Stitch]

How bad would the extra 2 MK 103s have affected its performance though? The advantage I see is that it could've made it home in case defensive gunners disabled the forward engine (though that would make it easy prey for escorting fighters). Considering the two DB-603s could power two of the later Fw 109 Doras or Ta-152 Cs, those may have been the better application. The Do could've made a good nightfighter and fast bomber (then again the Ar 234 was still better at that). The question is how bad of a bottleneck the engines were compared to airframes and pilot availability.

I don't know how badly the additional armament would've affected the 335's performance, probably not that much; the 335 was already fairly heavy (almost 20,000 lbs. all up), so a couple of 500 lbs. cannons probably wouldn't have made much difference. Also, they had streamlined fairings over the barrels, so there probably was very little drag penalty associated with the long-barrelled (lang) Mk 103's (see picture below).

As for the engines, the Doras and the -152's used the more powerful Jumo Ju 213, not the DB 603, so there was no conflict there; in fact, IMHO, the 335 probably would've been a better a/c with Ju 213's, but they were all going to the Doras, the -152's, and the Ju 188 at the end of the War, so they weren't available for the 335.

And, yes, the -335 would've made an excellent nachtjager, especially with the heavier armament installed. There was actually one nachtjager version (A-6) completed before the end of the War, but it never left the factory.

 

[KrazyKraut]

As for the engines, the Doras and the -152's used the more powerful Jumo Ju 213, not the DB 603, so there was no conflict there; in fact, IMHO, the 335 probably would've been a better a/c with Ju 213's, but they were all going to the Doras, the -152's, and the Ju 188 at the end of the War, so they weren't available for the 335.

The Ta 152 C (3-5 prototypes iirc) and according to some sources the Fw 190 D-15 (projected) were designed around the DB 603, though. Tank favoured the DB 603 over the Jumo, it was better at high altitude and had a better potential for further development.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Krazykraut,

>How bad would the extra 2 MK 103s have affected its performance though?

As I pointed out above, both Regnat and Griehl in their books on the type note that W.-Nr. 23014 - a pattern aircraft for the Do 335B-2 destroyer series equipped with the MK103 wing guns - when tested by the French on 25.4.1947 achieved 700 km/h at 1.5 km altitude.

That's about 30 km/h faster than the speeds I indicated above, in spite of the additional drag of the wing cannon.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[HoHun]

Hi Krazykraut,

>There actually was a direct comparison in a recent issue of a German aircraft magazine (Flugzeug Revue??), maybe someone's got the issue? I seem to recall the data for the Do 335 was all projected though.

The reason for the need to project data was that the investigated version was the Do 335C with enlarged wing of 45.5 m^2 for which no flight data was available.

Both Focke-Wulf and Dornier were asked to prepare a calculation based on their companies' standard methods for identical parameters for the Ta 152H and the Do 335C.

Both companies agreed that the Do 335 would be 33 km/h faster than the Ta 152H at sea level with both aircraft at emergency power, and 53 km/h (Focke-Wulf) or 58 km/h (Dornier) faster at full throttle height.

The Dornier calculations for the Do 335C from the reproduced speed graph show an absolute emergency power top speed of about 772 km/h @ 11.5 km.

There are more figures in the article, but in my opinion the article is rather confusing and I wish Hermann had published at least two or three pages besides the Dornier speed graph from the original reports to help me make sense of the figures.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Erich]

the Do 335 as a night fighter would of been dropped there was no need for it when the Me 262B-2a was ready that I have tech data and will be included in my book. the Do 335 was not ready to include AI as well in the prototype stage and sadly for the much larger bird no operational testing which I still go back to and yes it's a thorn in your flesh but without the proof needed, it all becomes speculation gentlemen. the single seat 262 had already proven itself the twin seater as well in a short two months of action. too bad I cannot become more positive about all of this concerning the big bird ........

 

[Kurfürst]

Hmmm, would not the Do 335s greater endurance come in handy for night-fighting purposes vs the higher top speed of the Me 262, which OTOH had very short endurance in comparison?

I kinda like the Do 335. The Zestörer/multi role idea is not a bad thing, but sadly it was not until the Do 335 a design could actually deliver the same performance as SE fighters in a twin-engined design..

 

[kool kitty89]

If you want longer endurance, there's the Ar 234 to consider. (and there were ways of improving the 262's endurance: drop tanks, switching to BMW 003E's)

 

[HoHun]

Hi Kurfürst,

>Hmmm, would not the Do 335s greater endurance come in handy for night-fighting purposes vs the higher top speed of the Me 262, which OTOH had very short endurance in comparison?

I believe that for night-fighting, the Dornier Do 335 would have offered a number of advantages over the Messerschmitt Me 262, for example a shorter take-off run, better low-speed thrust, safe single-engine characteristics even in a go-around, a shorter ground run (especially if equipped with a reversible-pitch propeller), and better speed control in the air due to the drag created by the propellers when the throttle is pulled back. Endurance is an advantage as well, though of course a faster aircraft can intercept its target in a shorter time, so the advantage would not be quite as great as one might think at first.

Since night fighters were often flying under adverse conditions, the operational safety offered by the Do 335's unique layout should not be overlooked. At night, a single-engine landing in a Me 262 certainly would be far more difficult (and dangerous) than a single-engine landing in a Do 335.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[dornier335nut]

the Do 335 as a night fighter would of been dropped there was no need for it when the Me 262B-2a was ready that I have tech data and will be included in my book.

Erich, which book is this? I'm interested.

Nicholas

 

[Erich]

Moskito-jagd über Deutschland

it is in preparation ~ of over 30 years of research, I have never spent so much time on anything in all my life ........

E ~

 

[dornier335nut]

Moskito-jagd über Deutschland

it is in preparation ~ of over 30 years of research, I have never spent so much time on anything in all my life ........

E ~

What is it about? Enlighten me please>

 

[Airframes]

Moskito fighter (hunter) over Germany? Will it be published in English at all Erich, and, if so, do you know yet when it might be released? I understand that this might be a difficult question, as I realise the ways of the publishing world, especially if it is still work in progress. I would be very interested in obtaining a copy.
I can well understand how much work, in fact sheer dedication, you must have put into this. I am hoping to have a novel published soon, and that (almost) drained me, just on the research, double checking and so on. And I only spent about eight months! Thirty years is some dedication! You have my deepest respect and admiration.
Terry.

 

[Soren]

"Mosquito hunt over Germany" it means

 

[Airframes]

Ah, got it! I thought it might have been in the context of the FW Moskito hunting, although I realise it didn't see service, or did it? I'm a bit hazy on that part of air operations.
Anyway Erich, I'd still be interested to learn more about your book, whether Moskito or Mosquito!
Terry.

 

[Soren]

I think it revovles around Germany's anti night fighter force hunting down the De Havilland Mosquito's over Germany which were preying on their own nightfighters. The He-219 Uhu was used in this role as well as Bf-109's Me-262's, the last two being the most effective.

 

[Erich]

well I really do not need to say more as you guys seem to be on it. there has been a down time for about 5-6 years due to my author-friends changes in his own life......and the EE's JG 300 volumes as we knew that some of our anti-Mossie data would be included at some point.

we will start the book about the effects that the Mossies had on the German society/LW hierarchy and the solutions proposed to put a stop to it.
Special emphasis on the LW nf's that were developed and those that were modified to chase the Mosquito bomber/recon/nf.

important personalities will be covered, pilots, crews of the LW, first person accounts from both sides of the air conflict, maps, routes taken by the LSNF, the LW NF's in response, LW airfields, the chain and network of the LW searchlights and patterns. the Lw Nachtjagd units that flew on the missions.

some 750 photos though for the sake of a single volume has to be really downsized

all that in a nutshell, and will probably discuss Kommando Welter like no other book has ever done with the 262 leading up to the twin seaters and experimentations of the Jet during the war and what may have been had it continued another year longer

 

[Soren]

I am personally really looking forward to that book, will be a great read no doubt.

 

[Airframes]

Great read? Sounds phenomenal! I'm really looking forward to it, especially as I knew two or three Mossie pilots. One chap I used to work with in my 'civvy' job, had been on the night Mossies, and once told me a bit about the LW night defence 'hunters'. Sadly, he's now passed on, otherwise I might have been able to get some info that would have possibly been of use.

 

[KrazyKraut]

I thought this might be of relevance. It's from an experience report of the E-Kdo.335 printed in a German magazine. The report is from January 23rd, 1945:

The main difficulties are:

• Landing Gear: is too weak, doesn't retract in 80 per cent of the conducted flights, wrong construction
• Hydraulics: especially unreliable concerning the landing gear when retracted
• Cooling, rear engine: Cooling leaky, control of the rear cooling flaps is too sensible. This leads to vibrations which in turn can lead to insecure flight attitudes, especially with low level flights. Regulation of the cooling flaps of the front engine is so bad that it can lead to under-cooling of the engine [odd since the installation seems similar to the Jumo 213 on the Fw-190 D or to those of the Ju 88 which don't report these problems afaik]
• Compass installation: the level [horizontal] mother compass installation leads to variations of up to 30 degrees (this led to the loss of one Do 335 on transit flight from Munich to Rechlin, Fw Wollank shot down by British fighters); emergency compass "not compensateable" due to disadvantageous relative strengths in the cockpit [???], variation of up to 30 degrees possible
• Radio: FuG 16: range too small; FuG 125: assessment not complete yet
• Canopy: very bad view; CO-seal not secure yet, opening and closing is too complicated both when entering the cockpit and on emergency exits [guess they didn't have the ejection seats yet?]
• E-Engine: The Do 335 is currently planned with DB 603 E engine. These are at the moment not used for the rear engine as they led to malfunctions (Getriebsstirnrad am Laderitzen gerissen) in 9 cases (on two planes: WrksNr. 109 and V 3). Alterations are currently under development at DB.

Flight evaluation:
There are no difficulties flying the plane. Somewhat distracting is the fact that the rear engine and propeller are not visible from the cockpit. Rear Engine can only be observed by looking at the instruments, becomes second nature after a few flights.
Take-off and landing are normal with weak tendencies to break out. Take-off length around 800m landing length is 1000m with favorable loading.

Performance: The flown performances are below the specifications of the industry. Performance down low 600 km/h, at altitude 800 km/h. By E'Stelle and Versuchverband OKL top speeds of 570km/h and 730 km/h and sometimes below were flown. These are prototype aircraft, further loss in performance for production aircraft due to installation of further equipment is possible (up to 20 km/h).

Curving: maneuverability is about on par with the Me 410, while speed increases to 300-350km/h. Acceleration high in dive, low in climb due to weight of the Do 335 (destroyer version take off weight is 10.4 tons).

Flights at high altitude not conducted yet.

View to the rear is bad. Sight blisters did not improve this because diameter of the plane is too big. During combat attacks from the rear and rear high have to be considered. View to the front low obscured by infavourable construction of the cowling. Changes for improvement are currently not possible.

 

[Juha]

Very interesting!
Thanks a lot, KrazyKraut

Juha