Do we need bigger amphibian water bombers?

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I work with both legacy and current systems.
Low speed canopies are much harder to deal with for a couple of reasons. They are much lighter weight and that comes with some structural issues. Light weight means light structure, which translates to significant flexing. You need a lower but longer impulse to make it leave the cockpit and do so cleanly. The alternative is pyro cutting, but again that has to be tied to the seat and have a secondary initiation system. Punching thu lighter canopy glass has big problems as the thin material flexes and then fractures in unpredictible patterns. Going thu a 1/4" thick canopy has a much higher possibility of producing sharpnel injuries over the current systems. It also requries a bigger and heavier seat, as it now needs to be able to break the canopy and shield the pilot while exiting the resultant opening. Simply releasing the canopy doesn't mean that it will separate or do so cleanly. Most manual canopy removals have airspeed limitations, or they simply don't work. The SF-260 is a good example. Unless you are within a certain speed window, the canopy will not come off the fuselage due to airflow. Below that window, one has to manually push it up to get airflow under it before it will separate. One other thing with the -260... pull the handle and you had better be prepared to jump, as the canopy is going to remove the vertical fin and rudder when it goes....

On disconnects...when the seat fires, it need to automatically sever or break any electrical or pneumatic attachments between the pilot and the aircraft and upon the man-seat separation sequence, any of them between the pilot and the seat. A standard U-174/U 4 conductor plug requires more than a few pounds of force to unplug. That force can be enough in an ejection that it pulls the pilots' head partially out of alignment during the sequence and results in some trauma to the neck. Being in the correct position is one reason that seats are quite complicated. Out of position will result in serious or fatal injuries 100% of the time. Even with all the seat does to minimize this, virtually every pilot that has ejected ends up with some neck or back trauma.

Standardization is great, but doesn't really keep the consumables problem in check. There are over 10,000 ACES 2 seats that have been produced and are in the inventory of 26 contries, but the pyro production to support those seats is gone or almost gone.

BTW... current standard for the time between ejection initiation and the pilot being on the parachute is 1.6 seconds for zero/zero.

Crew escape is a pretty specialized pack of engineering covering the range of human physiology to aerodyamics to explosive dynamics. :)
 
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I work with both legacy and current systems.
Low speed canopies are much harder to deal with for a couple of reasons. They are much lighter weight and that comes with some structural issues. Light weight means light structure, which translates to significant flexing. You need a lower but longer impulse to make it leave the cockpit and do so cleanly. The alternative is pyro cutting, but again that has to be tied to the seat and have a secondary initiation system. Punching thu lighter canopy glass has big problems as the thin material flexes and then fractures in unpredictible patterns. Going thu a 1/4" thick canopy has a much higher possibility of producing sharpnel injuries over the current systems. It also requries a bigger and heavier seat, as it now needs to be able to break the canopy and shield the pilot while exiting the resultant opening. Simply releasing the canopy doesn't mean that it will separate or do so cleanly. Most manual canopy removals have airspeed limitations, or they simply don't work. The SF-260 is a good example. Unless you are within a certain speed window, the canopy will not come off the fuselage due to airflow. Below that window, one has to manually push it up to get airflow under it before it will separate. One other thing with the -260... pull the handle and you had better be prepared to jump, as the canopy is going to remove the vertical fin and rudder when it goes....

On disconnects...when the seat fires, it need to automatically sever or break any electrical or pneumatic attachments between the pilot and the aircraft and upon the man-seat separation sequence, any of them between the pilot and the seat. A standard U-174/U 4 conductor plug requires more than a few pounds of force to unplug. That force can be enough in an ejection that it pulls the pilots' head partially out of alignment during the sequence and results in some trauma to the neck. Being in the correct position is one reason that seats are quite complicated. Out of position will result in serious or fatal injuries 100% of the time. Even with all the seat does to minimize this, virtually every pilot that has ejected ends up with some neck or back trauma.

Standardization is great, but doesn't really keep the consumables problem in check. There are over 10,000 ACES 2 seats that have been produced and are in the inventory of 26 contries, but the pyro production to support those seats is gone or almost gone.

BTW... current standard for the time between ejection initiation and the pilot being on the parachute is 1.6 seconds for zero/zero.

Crew escape is a pretty specialized pack of engineering covering the range of human physiology to aerodyamics to explosive dynamics. :)

Hi,

Thanks for your points that I fully understand.
I do think that there is still an opportunity here for clean sheet thinking and design of a lightweight escape system. There have been some interesting designs of lightweight seats and extraction systems, even the MB Mk 17 is fairly lightweight, although it maybe hangs on to it's military background a bit and, I don't think it's low-level low speed performance is quite good enough.
Hopefully, airborne fire fighting will be safer in the future!

Eng
 
I work with both legacy and current systems.
Low speed canopies are much harder to deal with for a couple of reasons. They are much lighter weight and that comes with some structural issues. Light weight means light structure, which translates to significant flexing. You need a lower but longer impulse to make it leave the cockpit and do so cleanly. The alternative is pyro cutting, but again that has to be tied to the seat and have a secondary initiation system. Punching thu lighter canopy glass has big problems as the thin material flexes and then fractures in unpredictible patterns. Going thu a 1/4" thick canopy has a much higher possibility of producing sharpnel injuries over the current systems. It also requries a bigger and heavier seat, as it now needs to be able to break the canopy and shield the pilot while exiting the resultant opening. Simply releasing the canopy doesn't mean that it will separate or do so cleanly. Most manual canopy removals have airspeed limitations, or they simply don't work. The SF-260 is a good example. Unless you are within a certain speed window, the canopy will not come off the fuselage due to airflow. Below that window, one has to manually push it up to get airflow under it before it will separate. One other thing with the -260... pull the handle and you had better be prepared to jump, as the canopy is going to remove the vertical fin and rudder when it goes....

On disconnects...when the seat fires, it need to automatically sever or break any electrical or pneumatic attachments between the pilot and the aircraft and upon the man-seat separation sequence, any of them between the pilot and the seat. A standard U-174/U 4 conductor plug requires more than a few pounds of force to unplug. That force can be enough in an ejection that it pulls the pilots' head partially out of alignment during the sequence and results in some trauma to the neck. Being in the correct position is one reason that seats are quite complicated. Out of position will result in serious or fatal injuries 100% of the time. Even with all the seat does to minimize this, virtually every pilot that has ejected ends up with some neck or back trauma.

Standardization is great, but doesn't really keep the consumables problem in check. There are over 10,000 ACES 2 seats that have been produced and are in the inventory of 26 contries, but the pyro production to support those seats is gone or almost gone.

BTW... current standard for the time between ejection initiation and the pilot being on the parachute is 1.6 seconds for zero/zero.

Crew escape is a pretty specialized pack of engineering covering the range of human physiology to aerodyamics to explosive dynamics. :)
Thank you for taking the time to present all that.
:thumbleft:

Short story you might like:
An acquaintance was doing a low pass and zoom in a homebuilt micro biplane. He pulled hard at the bottom and the pitch broke. He got the nose going straight up, and at the apex stepped out and had enough to fill an old school canopy. He tore a shoe off on the way out on who knows what, but talk about luck. He landed just about on the crumpled wreckage.
 
Something to keep in mind....I'm not what would be considered an SME on egress systems. I've just been around them for more than 46 years now and they have been a significant part of my job for the last 23 years. I've been lucky, in that my best teacher on egress has more than 40 years of nothing but egress systems...20+ years active duty in the USAF, about 15 years with our company and at least 7 years with Martin Baker now. Not only did he instruct well on the systems, but also taught me how to read between the lines of what was written in the T.O.'s and manuals. I'd say I know enough to not blow myself up, or have an inadvertant systems inititation, but I still learn things every time I work on a seat or canopy or do a recert class. There is always something to learn with things that go boom.
 
Something to keep in mind....I'm not what would be considered an SME on egress systems. I've just been around them for more than 46 years now and they have been a significant part of my job for the last 23 years. I've been lucky, in that my best teacher on egress has more than 40 years of nothing but egress systems...20+ years active duty in the USAF, about 15 years with our company and at least 7 years with Martin Baker now. Not only did he instruct well on the systems, but also taught me how to read between the lines of what was written in the T.O.'s and manuals. I'd say I know enough to not blow myself up, or have an inadvertant systems inititation, but I still learn things every time I work on a seat or canopy or do a recert class. There is always something to learn with things that go boom.

Yes, I worked around them and flew on them for nearly 20 years, fortunately without having to use one, although there were some close calls!
There is a definite "mind-set" that has to be adopted with powered escape systems that takes some effort to impose. IMO, it is a bit like working with weapons, to be safe you have to always treat them as live.

Cheers

Eng
 

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