DOES ANYONE KNOW THE FINAL KILL TALLY FOR THE GREMANS PER TYPE

parsifal · Mar 13, 2013

well, if you guys insist on serious replies, we might start in the relatively neutral (ne: who cares) areaq of italaians versus the Greek air force. This site gives a bit of an account of how the P-24s attached to the RHAF in 1940 performed. In a word, not too badly.....

The Greek PZL fighters

Aozora · Mar 13, 2013

Being totally serious: one major problem is that many of the Luftwaffe records from the last months of the war were destroyed or have disappeared, or were simply incomplete as conditions became more chaotic, so there will never be a definitive answer.

GregP · Mar 13, 2013

Thanks for the neat link, Parsifal. Hadn't seen it before, but am making some progress in finding out who flew what fighter. Surprisingly easy if you get down to it. But I have entered only about 50 types and victory breakouts ... I have about 11,000 to go. Could take years. One top ace flew the 109, 190, and the 262 and had victories in each .... but we know how many of each.

parsifal · Mar 14, 2013

I think it an impossible task to undertake in one go. Better to look at specific campaigns and work out LW victory/loss rates, by type.

If we wanted to make a start on that basis, the first campaign is the Polish campaign. According to this source, the PAF did surpisingly well against the LW.

Polish Air Force 1939 - Air Warfare - World War II Zone Forums

It kinda dispels the myth the PAF was shot mout of the sky in the first two days of the war. What they couldnt do was disrupt significantly the German control of the skies, and their ability to undertake operations more or less at will. The situation was repeated in 1944-5 on the Eastern Front, where, depite being able to inflict significant loss rates on the VVS, the LW simply was unable to infict enough damage to make enough difference or disrupt Soviet air operations. Thats in fact the critical measure or yardstick by which to measure effectiveness, not so much loss rates. Loss rates only become a significant factor, if those losses are able to disrupt the operations.

GregP · Mar 14, 2013

You know, that's a very cogent observation that is concise and well said ... The object is to disrupt the enemy air operations, regardless of all other goals.

I'll look at the link and get back with you.

Thanks!

GrauGeist · Mar 14, 2013

Holy crap...how can this thread ever get back on track after experiencing a group hug!

GregP · Mar 14, 2013

Oh Gremans Demons, let it gore! Wus only trying to make thigs clear. Would not waunt to be misconscrewed or ousfahrted.

drgondog · Mar 14, 2013

Here is what I have for US Only.

ETO and MTO numbers align to USAF 85 VC. The values do not reflect RAF Mustangs in ETO nor RAF/RAAF P-40 in MTO or RAAF P-40/P-51/P-47 in PTO or VVS in Russia. Does not include Ground credits in any theatre but the P-51 in ETO had more than all others combined.

Aircraft Type ETO - European Theatre of Operations MTO - Mediterranean Theatre of Operations PTO - Pacific Theatre of Operations CBI - China-Burma-India
Type-----ETO-------MTO------PTO------CBI-------Total
P-51 4179 1063 297 345 5954 (Includes F-6 and A-36)
F6F 8 0 5160 0 5168
P-38 452 1431 1700 157 3785
P-47 2658 263 696.67 16 3661
P-40 0 592 660.5 973 2225.5
F4U 0 0 2140 0 2140
F4F 0 26 986 0 1012
FM-2 0 0 422 0 422
Spitfire 15 364 0 0 379
P-39 P-400 2.5 25 288 5 320.5
SBD 0 0 138 138
P-61 59 0 63.5 5 127.5
TBF/TBM 0 0 98 0 98
Beaufighter 6 25 0 0 31
F2A 0 0 10 0 10
P-43 0 0 3 3 6
P-36 0 0 3 0 3
P-70 0 2 0 0 2
P-26 0 0 2 0 2
P-35 0 0 1 0 1
Mosquito 0 1 0 0 1

Erich · Mar 14, 2013

GregP

I suggest for your interests in the LW day-fighter RK winners/high scoring Aces to purchase a copy of Ernst Obermaiers concise work, volume 1: Die Ritterkreuzträger der Luftwaffe 1939-1945. Still a classic even though there are some confirmation errors it does list with each member both day/night fighter member the units served with.

GregP · Mar 14, 2013

Thanks, Erich!

VBF-13 · Mar 14, 2013

drgondog said:
Here is what I have for US Only.

ETO and MTO numbers align to USAF 85 VC. The values do not reflect RAF Mustangs in ETO nor RAF/RAAF P-40 in MTO or RAAF P-40/P-51/P-47 in PTO or VVS in Russia. Does not include Ground credits in any theatre but the P-51 in ETO had more than all others combined.

Aircraft Type ETO - European Theatre of Operations MTO - Mediterranean Theatre of Operations PTO - Pacific Theatre of Operations CBI - China-Burma-India
Type-----ETO-------MTO------PTO------CBI-------Total
P-51 4179 1063 297 345 5954 (Includes F-6 and A-36)
F6F 8 0 5160 0 5168
P-38 452 1431 1700 157 3785
P-47 2658 263 696.67 16 3661
P-40 0 592 660.5 973 2225.5
F4U 0 0 2140 0 2140
F4F 0 26 986 0 1012
FM-2 0 0 422 0 422
Spitfire 15 364 0 0 379
P-39 P-400 2.5 25 288 5 320.5
SBD 0 0 138 138
P-61 59 0 63.5 5 127.5
TBF/TBM 0 0 98 0 98
Beaufighter 6 25 0 0 31
F2A 0 0 10 0 10
P-43 0 0 3 3 6
P-36 0 0 3 0 3
P-70 0 2 0 0 2
P-26 0 0 2 0 2
P-35 0 0 1 0 1
Mosquito 0 1 0 0 1

Don't you have anything for the Luftwaffles?

drgondog · Mar 14, 2013

No. Greedy little wench.

Erich · Mar 14, 2013

Eeeeeeeeeeks

for LW fighter units that would be a rather large 0. not all JG's/NJG's/ZG's have unit histories for their claims. sadly appearances are showing we are never going to know, 3 plus rather oversized trucks were blown to hell during the final battles for Berlin and it's environs much of what was in the trucks was combat data, LW included

tomo pauk · Mar 14, 2013

drgondog said:
Here is what I have for US Only.

ETO and MTO numbers align to USAF 85 VC. The values do not reflect RAF Mustangs in ETO nor RAF/RAAF P-40 in MTO or RAAF P-40/P-51/P-47 in PTO or VVS in Russia. Does not include Ground credits in any theatre but the P-51 in ETO had more than all others combined.

Aircraft Type ETO - European Theatre of Operations MTO - Mediterranean Theatre of Operations PTO - Pacific Theatre of Operations CBI - China-Burma-India
Type-----ETO-------MTO------PTO------CBI-------Total
P-51 4179 1063 297 345 5954 (Includes F-6 and A-36)
F6F 8 0 5160 0 5168
P-38 452 1431 1700 157 3785
P-47 2658 263 696.67 16 3661
P-40 0 592 660.5 973 2225.5
F4U 0 0 2140 0 2140
F4F 0 26 986 0 1012
FM-2 0 0 422 0 422
Spitfire 15 364 0 0 379
P-39 P-400 2.5 25 288 5 320.5
SBD 0 0 138 138
P-61 59 0 63.5 5 127.5
TBF/TBM 0 0 98 0 98
Beaufighter 6 25 0 0 31
F2A 0 0 10 0 10
P-43 0 0 3 3 6
P-36 0 0 3 0 3
P-70 0 2 0 0 2
P-26 0 0 2 0 2
P-35 0 0 1 0 1
Mosquito 0 1 0 0 1

Bill,
Would that be the claims or kills?

VBF-13 · Mar 14, 2013

drgondog said:
No. Greedy little wench.

drgondog · Mar 14, 2013

tomo pauk said:
Bill,
Would that be the claims or kills?

Those are the final USAF study 85 air victory credits for all the USAAF, plus various sources for USN/USMC.

meatloaf109 · Mar 14, 2013

VBF-13 said:
Don't you have anything for the Luftwaffles?

The Luftwaffles got the syrup knocked out of them at the Battle of the IHOP. We buttered 'em good!

VBF-13 · Mar 14, 2013

drgondog said:
Those are the final USAF study 85 air victory credits for all the USAAF, plus various sources for USN/USMC.

But did they say, "I mean it, I mean it, I mean it, I mean it!" That's what he wants to know.

meatloaf109 said:
The Luftwaffles got the syrup knocked out of them at the Battle of the IHOP. We buttered 'em good!

Aw, now you're making me Hungary.

parsifal · Mar 14, 2013

womdering when the Danish are going to be trotted out

meatloaf109 · Mar 14, 2013

Danish roll, Turkey trot.

DOES ANYONE KNOW THE FINAL KILL TALLY FOR THE GREMANS PER TYPE

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