Dogfighting in a P 38

[GregP]

Thanks Biff. I remember the "race" almost second by second, but the exact year didn't seem to stick out. It was only 21 years ago ... I had a hand-held at the race and was listening in on place-to-plane. They were taking turns leading. It wasn't really a race ... it was more like "rally 'round the race course and let them see what an air race might be like." I suppose there wasn't really enough money there to stage a real race. Seems a shame to lose the Super Corsair in a demonstration run, doesn't it?

Don't recall the other P-38's monicker because I was mostly over at Lefty's plane. Too bad the main sponsor, "Incredible Universe," went bankrupt a couple of years later and the "race" went away. An acquaintance of mine still has one of their old delivery trucks. It wasn't bad as a show, but definitely wasn't a race. They had the monster truck "Grave Digger" there to do some wheelies and jump a car, and did a biplane - jet car drag race. Since it was an ex-military field, the drag race truck got up to some 300 mph before he popped his chutes!

Unless I mis-remember (could be) the aerobatic acts were Leo Loudenslager in the Bud Light Special and Bob Hoover. Could be wrong because there were 2 or 3 "Phoenix 500s" before it died off.

Good times well past, but not forgotten.

We all miss Leo and Wes Winter.

I'm glad I wasn't in Texas when Wes pulled the wings off of his Partenavia P-68. I have seen that footage as reported on Japanese TV and the posters think it happened in Japan rather than in Texas due to the language being spoken! Go figure. I could post it here, but it's not the sort of thing I like to remember an old friend by.

Cheers. Keep 'em flying.

 

[soulezoo]

Hey Biff,

Was it Lefty Gardner's White Lightning you sat in? I was there and also was there when Kevin Eldridge bailed out. Never thought at the time I'd know him some 30 years later! Great guy, and a lucky one, too. It wasn't pretty when the oil line broke. I went out some 3-4 days later with a good friend ( Ron Saum, we rode Observed Trials motorcycles together and his son, Andy, was Arizona state champion several times) who worked at the GM proving Grounds and found a few parts.

Lefty's P-38 was always dirty and Pat & Joe Yancey sprayed 409 all over it at that show and it shined a bit better ... looked whiter anyway. That was a long time ago, seems like maybe 1985 to 1987, but I can't really recall the exact year. Old memories get older and I can't understand people who remember the year and day when are where they were in WWII, but there are guys who DO recall it. I have a hard time remembering what I had for lunch on Wednesday of last week! ... but I still recall electrical engineering school almost class by class. Maybe I have reason to think of it more. Still, I can remember Kevin's Super Corsair plight VERY clearly, just not the exact year and day. He went out over the left side and should have gone out over the right side. Maybe he would not have hit the horizontal tail ...

As you well know, that's now the Red Bull P-38 and it is all shiny Aluminum. It is a P-38-L-5 (44-53254) with early cowlings, so it looks like an early model, but isn't. But ... you know that already. Lefty flew a good show that day, didn't he?

Greg, we may have met and not known it... I spent a lot of time at Lefty's P-38 in Reno ('86-88). I've got a couple of cousins that live in Stead and one can watch the races from their driveway.

 

[Hiromachi]

Since this was touched on the first page, few posts under OP, then I thought bringing US Army Air Force information would add to the discussion as well. Following is based on US Army Air Force Informational Intelligence Summary from May 10th, 1944. It provides a decent perspective on Type I Model I Japanese fighter (Oscar) and P-38 and how they compare.
Not that P-38 exact model is to me unknown, tests were carried in SWPA and at given time it could be anything from late G model to whatever else was being supplied, also Oscar was not in amazing condition and based on numbers pilots gave, it was flown below recommended combat power, since pilot used 30"Hg MAP and 2100 RPM on all maneuvers, while recommended is +130 mmHg MAP (35"Hg) at 2600 RPM. It was even below normal power (I'm not going into terms right now, Japanese had many intermediate terms for various engine settings ranging from economical cruising up to overboost, depending on throttle position) which is +40 mmHg (31.5"Hg) and 2480 RPM. P-38 on the other hand operated without radio, but carried full combat load of ammunition. For climbs pilot used 40"Hg-45"Hg MAP at 2600-3000 RPM and according to quote: "climbed 3,500 to 4,000 feet per minute to 20,000 feet."

So wasting no more time here is the quote, based on Jim Long (j-aircraft.com) excerpt from AAF Intelligence Summary:

REPORT OF OSCAR PILOT

Tests at 5,000, 10,000 ft.

"We climbed to 5,000 feet and began maneuvering. The P-38 climbed faster in both rate of climb and air speed to 5,000 feet. I used 30" and 2100 RPM on all maneuvers.

"The P-38 dove on the OSCAR's tail and in a steep turn to the left the OSCAR was on the P-38's tail in one and a half turns. The same results were obtained on a turn to the right. The turns were made level but, if the P-38 made steep climbing turns, the OSCAR was unable to keep enough speed to stay with the P-38.

"Pulling up into a hammer-head stall, the P-38 overran the OSCAR and, after the OSCAR kicked off, the P-38 dropped down on its tail. By looping very tightly from 240 mph, the OSCAR could get on the P-38's tail, but the latter did not have speed to loop so just leveled out on top of a stall.

"I then made a head-on pass at the P-38, rolling on my back and Split S-ing after passing. The P-38 pulled up into the sun and I lost it. I would have been unable to catch it in a climb away.

"The OSCAR dove on the P-38 and had no trouble staying behind it in turns both to the left and right. The OSCAR tended to overrun the P-38 by staying inside the turns. When combat flaps were used on the P-38, it was easy to stay behind by cutting throttle to keep from overrunning.

"In a hammer-head stall, the P-38 outclimbed and outran the OSCAR, but on kicking off and diving the OSCAR could turn inside and follow the P-38 far enough down to get a good shot.

"The P-38 again outclimbed and outran the OSCAR in the hammer-head stalls, the OSCAR dropping to 60 mph. When the P-38 climbed above the OSCAR, it could kick off and get a shot at the OSCAR on the dive. The P-38 tried a loop with the OSCAR but the OSCAR was one and one-half times around before the P-38 completed its loop.

"The OSCAR then dove on the P-38's tail and, in steep turns to the right and left, had no trouble staying with the P-38. The steeper the turn, the more the OSCAR tended to overrun the P-38.

"In level turns the OSCAR turned inside the P-38's turns. When the P-38 made steep climbing turns, the OSCAR lost speed and could not hold its nose on the P-38.

"In following the P-38 on the way down, the OSCAR could stay in easy gun range on all maneuvers except fast climbs or dives over 300 mph. The OSCAR followed the P-38 up into an Immelman, rolling out at 50 mph on top. The controls are very loose at that speed but it can stay right on the P-38's tail. On rolls to the right and left--200 to 28O mph—-the OSCAR stayed with the P-38; also in Split S's and rolls straight down up to 300 mph."

REPORT OF P-38 PILOT

Tests at 5,000, 10,000 ft.


"On all turns and tight maneuvers, the OSCAR is definitely superior and will stay with a P-38 in all acrobatics by doing the same maneuvers more quickly.

"The P-38 will outclimb the OSCAR at all the altitudes from ground level to 10,000 feet. Using 4O" of manifold pressure and 2600 RPM, the P-38 is far superior in speed and climb.

"Combat flaps used in turns only served to slow the P-38 down and were useless in trying to turn with the OSCAR.

"In doing an Immelman, the OSCAR could stay with a P-38 by pulling up to 50 mph.

"The P-38 can dive away from OSCAR or get out of range after diving speed has reached about 300 mph.

"The angle of climb of the P-38 is much flatter than that of the OSCAR, and holding it at 3,000 feet per minute ascent the P-38 will end up far ahead and above the OSCAR.

"The P-38 can turn with the OSCAR by climbing steeply and turning at the same time. However, the turn should be about 50° and rate of climb about 3,000 feet a minute.

"In a diving turn on an OSCAR's tail, the P-38 can hold a lead for the first 60° of the turn only."

REPORT OF OSCAR PILOT

Tests at 20,000 feet

"I climbed the OSCAR to 20,000 feet and met the P-38 over the field. Full throttle at 20,000 feet was 20 to 22" and I used 2300 RPM in all maneuvers. The IAS cruising was 140. The P-38 dove on the OSCAR's tail and in the initial 180° turn the OSCAR got out of gun range. In two turns the OSCAR still was 180° from the P-38's tail and losing speed fast. The P-38 lost 1,000 feet in four turns and enabled the OSCAR to gain a little, but it still was a long way from obtaining a shot. In turns to the right the OSCAR still could not get a shot. I had some trouble with the throttle slipping and the canopy coming Open, but after anchoring both I still could not get on the P-38's tail. In level turns the OSCAR's speed dropped very fast and in the same radius turn as the P-38 it was difficult to maintain altitude.

"The OSCAR then dove on the P-38, and with only 1,000 feet advantage in height the P-38 had to turn under the OSCAR with the result that, the OSCAR could get on the P-38's tail, IAS after diving being only 160 mph. With this air speed, the OSCAR easily stayed behind the P-38 on both turns to the right and left and tended to overrun. The P-38 put down combat flaps after two turns and the OSCAR had to cut the throttle to keep from over-running.

"When the P-38 looped, the OSCAR followed it up, and by turning inside the P-38 it ended up on its back about 500 feet below the P-38 with an IAS of 50 mph. On diving down, the OSCAR was in position to shoot at the P-38.

"A series of loops and Immelmans were done between 20,000 feet and 15,000 feet with the OSCAR easily staying behind the P-38, most of the time in position for a shot. In long climbs the P-38 pulled far enough ahead for a turn into the OSCAR for a head-on pass.

"In a series of Split S's, loops and Immelmans, the OSCAR stayed with the P-38 and in any maneuver involving a turn could get an easy shot. On straight climbs the P-38 easily left the OSCAR.

"On turns at 20,000 feet, the P-38 can stall out the OSCAR by making steep climbing turns, or if the P-38 dives on the OSCAR it can turn with the OSCAR as it likes, unless the OSCAR has an IAS of 170 or more to start."

REPORT OF P-38 PILOT

Tests at 20,000 feet

"I used 45" and 3000 RPM on take-off and climbed 3,500 to 4,000 feet per minute to 20,000 feet. I flew on OSCAR's wing during speed test at 13,000 feet indicating 210 mph. I climbed to 21,000 feet and dove on OSCAR's tail indicating 210 mph. OSCAR made a right turn and continued around for four turns without getting into position for a shot. However, he was out-turning me slightly. I lost about 1,000 feet in the turns which seemed to help the OSCAR maintain better speed. On a turn to the left, indicating 210 mph, I kept at exactly 20,000 feet nose high position, and OSCAR could not turn any tighter than the P-38. When I slowed down to 110 mph, he still could not gel on my tail.

"I was flying the P-38 at 200 mph IAS and the OSCAR dived on me, I made a sharp turn to the right, pulling in until on the three and a half turn I stalled out. The OSCAR was in a firing position all the time. On the left turn, the OSCAR stayed in firing position. I pulled maneuver flaps when the third 360 degree, air speed 150 IAS, and OSCAR cut throttle back and pulled inside me until I stalled out about 180 degrees after I put flaps down.


"I followed the OSCAR into a loop, airspeed 250 mph IAS, and had to put down maneuver flaps to finish the loop. The OSCAR was started on the second loop when I went over the top and settled on my tail as I came out. The OSCAR followed me into a loop and stayed inside the loop to the top of mine, then half rolled and came over on me, and half rolled again on my tail and followed through the rest of the loop.

"While returning to the field from 20,000 feet, I tried every maneuver I could think of and the OSCAR out-maneuvered me every time. I could outclimb it in a high speed low angle climb, then do a tight 180 degree and meet the OSCAR head on. I could also out-dive OSCAR easily. In high speed climbing turns, it was impossible for the OSCAR to keep in range or to keep his sights on me."

Based on this I find it hard to believe that P-38 could keep with Oscar, maybe with a damaged one but data above makes it rather one sided for any maneuvers involving turning. Also it seems that Oscar suffered a lot less than Zero with high stick forces on ailerons and could keep up in rolls with P-38 at least to a certain degree. P-38 on the other hand possessed a clear and obvious speed and climb advantage, albeit it still has to be remembered that Oscar was not in perfect condition here.

 

[GregP]

Hi Soulezoo,

Maybe so. It was a good time at any rate. Lefty flew the crap out of that P-38 and did what I'd call "minimal" maintenance. It wasn't until it was a bit "tired" that many items would get addressed and corrected. Despite that, he always put on a great show.

I'd hesitate to make any combat conclusion against a plane not being flown at combat power or by a pilot not familiar with the aircraft. I doubt seriously if the P-38 / Oscar comparison means much when compared with a combat encounter with an early-war, well-trained Japanese veteran combat pilot in the Oscar. But it does make an interesting read.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Based on this I find it hard to believe that P-38 could keep with Oscar.

At the end of the day you're leaving out one important aspect - pilot skill.

 

[soulezoo]

At the end of the day you're leaving out one important aspect - pilot skill.

I agree. While we make many threads about the advantages/disadvantages of differing aircraft discussing ad infinitum (and it can be fun doing so, that's why we are here) in the end, it is about the ability of one pilot to be able to harness the ability of his craft and impose his will on the opponent. Finnish Buffaloes anyone?

 

[Hiromachi]

I'm not leaving it Flyboyj, I am fully aware that good pilot will bring best of his aircraft and bad pilot will struggle with basics. But pilot skill is something hard to measure and harder to put into equation, thus a standard tests carried on captured equipment are a decent way to judge things. No perfect by all means, but they give perspective.

I mean they were usually carried in such a way that pilots flew aircraft, tested them and compared and then swapped places to see how it looks from different perspective and only then they would form conclusions. Those were given to combat pilots to gain advantage over the enemy. If you ask me, thats pretty huge responsibility given to those men since others would possibly follow their correct or incorrect advises.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm not leaving it Flyboyj, I am fully aware that good pilot will bring best of his aircraft and bad pilot will struggle with basics. But pilot skill is something hard to measure and harder to put into equation, thus a standard tests carried on captured equipment are a decent way to judge things. No perfect by all means, but they give perspective.

And all true, but again consider the total picture when hearing about someone like John Tilley who did turn inside an Oscar at 90 knts, shoot down the aircraft and live to tell about, and I know he wasn't the only one who managed to do this.

 

[Hiromachi]

I consider that as well. The problem is my nature, I just like to know both sides of the coin. And in this case we only know what Mr. John Tilley said, we dont know the point of view of that poor guy who got shot down. Maybe he was wounded ? Maybe his aircraft was damaged or exhibited unexpected problems ? Any of this could happen and be the reason why good pilot such as Mr John Tilley managed to get a firing solution.

Anyway, thats about the rant. I also have a question in regard to P-38, F model specifically. Do anyone know when last of them were replaced on the frontlines ? When going through Pacific Wrecks I was able to find F models in combat all the way to 1944.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

we dont know the point of view of that poor guy who got shot down. Maybe he was wounded ? Maybe his aircraft was damaged or exhibited unexpected problems ? Any of this could happen and be the reason why good pilot such as Mr John Tilley managed to get a firing solution.

How about considering the Japanese pilot lacked either skill or training?!?!

I also have a question in regard to P-38, F model specifically. Do anyone know when last of them were replaced on the frontlines ? When going through Pacific Wrecks I was able to find F models in combat all the way to 1944.

From what I could see it seemed like some units had earlier model P-38s well into 1944. This may be due to "attrition replacement' where individual tail numbers may not be replaced with a newer aircraft until it has flown a certain amount of hours or until the airframe is lost or "beyond economical repair." Although later model P-38s offered great improvements over earlier models, the specific theater combined with operational results might not have warranted the rapid replacement of these aircraft.

 

[Hiromachi]

Sure, there is such possibility. But its as good assumption as any other.

 

[vdorta]

1. when in a dogfight could the pilot use throttles to change how the engines worked? i mean one engine on full power the other on half. if so how would the change the flight characteristics, is there any advantage to doing something like this?

2. what about the dive brake? could using it make turns tighter or slow the plane down so they didn't over shoot the target?

1. Yes, by doing that you can tighten your radius of turn and gain a momentary advantage and, as has been said, it was only used sparingly and by the best pilots. I remember reading a detailed explanation by a P-38 pilot in a book years ago.

2. Not the dive brake; the maneuvering flap was the first 8-degree position of the Fowler landing flaps.

 

[eagledad]

If I remember correctly, the P-38F's flew their last combat missions with the 82nd FG the end of May 1944, though the first J's were used in early 1944.

Up in the Aleutians, P-38G's were used along with newer versions of the P-38 into 1945.

Eagledad

 

[MIflyer]

A big deal on the P-38 was when they added the hydraulic boost for the ailerons on the L models. But this boost was not like that on more modern aircraft there was no proportional "partial" use or "Q feel" system that automatically adjusted the amount of back pressure to the pilot to account for differing speed and altitude. When you slow an airplane you need to move the controls a lot more than when you are going faster. I even recall a period where my airplane had been down for months for a engine top overhaul; when I flew it and then slowed it before turning base leg I thought, "What's wrong with this things? The roll rate has gotten terrible!" Then I realized I was only doing 60 MPH and all was normal. The jets had the ability to get a little bit of boost by moving the stick not too far and the Century series fighters had Q feel systems designed to let you move the stick with the same amount of effort at low or high speed and get the same results. The only such system I have had some experience with was that for the F-106; it used very high pressure bottled air to power the system and if a certain thing went wrong the pilot had 3000 PSI on the rudder pedals.

But with the hydraulically boosted ailerons on the P-38L you got it all and you got it right now! In a hard maneuvering dogfight that was fine - if you expected it. When a group of P-38 pilots from Gerry Johnson's unit in the PI went to pick up some new P-38L's, flying on the way home they were horrified. The airplanes were all but uncontrollable! Level flight seemed to be almost impossible; a slow drunken roll from side to side was all they could manage. They realized that landing with that control problem was going to be a nightmare. One pilot even said he planned to just point the airplane over a big lake and bail out when they got to home base.

Then one pilot noticed a valve labeled "Aileron Boost" and tried turning it off. Then all was back to normal. No one had even told the pilots about the new aileron boost feature! Furthermore, it was NEVER supposed to be used for takeoff, landing, cruise, or formation flight! Someone at the depot had turned the boost system on, presumably to test it, and then not bothered to turn it off. They were all lucky they did not crash on takeoff.

Capt Eric Brown of the Fleet Air Arm said that while he found the roll rate of the stock P-38 to be unimpressive that the models with the hydraulic boost system "rolled like a dingbat." And apparently they did. On one mission Gerry Johnson decided to show his men how it was done, said, "Watch this!" and outmaneuvered a Japanese fighter, using a combination of the hair curling roll rate and the P-38L's famous zoom climb capability to essentially out turn the enemy fighter in what I guess was a form of High Speed Yo Yo. A P-38 pilot's son I know said his Dad put it this way, "When we got that aileron boost that's when we really became the Fork Tailed Devils."

And by the way, the "dive brakes" were not like flaps at all. They are at the midpoint of the wing, not the trailing edge, and are hinged so that they come down with a V shape, like long inverted pyramids under the wing, to brake up the airflow.

Y'all have a good weekend and Happy Enola Gay Day!

 

[wuzak]

Then again....

From Francis Dean, America's Hundred Thousand:

The P-38 was a large and heavy fighter not suited for quick "snap" or "slam-bang" maneuvers, and had a particularly slow initial response to roll due to a a high lateral inertia characteristic. The problem was a slow start into a roll and thus an inability to switch quickly from one attitude to another, as in reversing from a turn in one direction to one in the other. As one pilot said "It was disconcerting to have a fighter barreling in on you, crank the wheel over hard, and just have the P-38 sit there. Then, after it slowly rolled the first five or ten degrees of bank it would turn quickly, but the hesitation was sweat producing". Many combat losses, particularly in North Africa, were attributed to this creaky initial rate of roll. Another pilot noted "The first ten degrees of bank came very slow". Power boosted ailerons, introduced the same time as dive recovery flaps, gave the P-38 pilot a lot more "muscle" to improve roll characteristics at high speeds, but did nothing to improve them at low and moderate speeds where maximum roll performance was dependent only on full aileron deflection instead of pilot effort.

What I understand from that is that at low to moderate speeds the pilot could achieve full deflection of the ailerons without too much effort, meaning that the rate of roll was all down to the great god of aerodynamics and Newton's laws.

Getting the ailerons deflected in half the time or with less physical effort mattered little to the roll rate at low speeds.

At high speeds the ailerons cannot be fully deflected, the roll performance depending on how far they can be, which is dependent on the force applied to them through the stick. With no assistance it wasn't a whole lot, but with assistance it was a great improvement.

 

[BLine22]

1. Yes, by doing that you can tighten your radius of turn and gain a momentary advantage and, as has been said, it was only used sparingly and by the best pilots. I remember reading a detailed explanation by a P-38 pilot in a book years ago.

Using asymmetrical thrust in level turn will just create a skidded turn just like using to much rudder to tighten the turn. From what I have read about the P-38, asymmetrical thrust was used in vertical maneuvers like wing-overs and hammer -head type course reversals.

 

[snelson]

thanks for the info guys. i've heard story's about how the 38 was outclassed by single engine aircraft, yet some of our best ace's flew it. what would a P 38 need to do against German planes boom and voom or run for it.

 

[GregP]

Our two top aces flew the P-38. That would be Dick Bong and Tommy McGuire.

In their cases, they were stationed around some quite active Japanese airfields. They probably had a lot more "opportunity" for aerial combat than many other pilots did after V-E day. Not to say anything negative about their skills at all ... I was just pointing out that they actually saw airborne Japanese aircraft and likely had more opportunity to score more than a lot of other pilots did.

 

[Frank Stewart]

Hi Pbehn,

I know what you mean. I competed on motorcycles for 20 years and have heard various bikes described by different "riders" different ways. One rider remembered the Kawasaki 900 as unbeatable. I recall head shake and a LOT of frame flex, making it a bike that was both powerful as well as very scary when anywhere NEAR the limits of traction.

I quit road racing, after fixing and selling the 750 Suzuki, at age 44 after low-siding at 165 mph and sliding into hay bales somewhere about the middle of a turn. Thing is, I was mostly riding Observed Trials and really didn't have any business out on a paved road course anyway. I was doing it, "for fun," and it wasn't when you fell. Ruined a brand new $1,000 pair of Bates leathers, but also walked away sore instead of seriously injured. The leathers did their job, after a fashion, as did the Shoei helmet. Expensive afternoon for the wallet. But I was running in third at the time, so I think back on it with some fondness that was absent when it happened.

I couldn't use differential throttle to help turn because there was only one engine and the swingarm didn't flex like the old bikes! The Kawasaki 750 Triple had a LOT of frame and swingarm flex coupled with a very "pipey" engine setup that left the front end in the air at various odd times when all you wanted was a short acceleration to the next turn. When the front came down, it would head shake even with a steering damper! I hate tank slappers ... especially when I'm the rider! It certainly interferes with your style as a rider.

Maybe I hit "critical Mach! (Recall the 750 Triple was called a "Mach III"). Did you ever race a Suzuki 500 Titan Twin? Now there was an odd duck of a bike. Not remembering it with any special fondness, like with a Yamaha RD350.

I'd love to talk bikes and trade some "scares," but that might seriously wander off-topic in a P-38 Dogfighting thread, eh what? Back to P-38s ... and strange aerodynamic possibilities. I have definitely read that the elevator balances were completely unnecessary, but were placed there at the direction of the USAAF (or USAAC at the timne), specifically the commander of aircraft procurement. But I have no proof of same. I just read about that somewhere in the past. Can't recall quite where, but it seems like the source was a Ben Kelsey interview sometime post-war.

Good one, FlyboyJ!

I started on a Kwacker 500 triple while I was stationed in Ethiopia and it was fast for the time. It would do an honest 125 according to the timer's stop watch. I did not know that it handled like crap until much later when I was stationed in Heidelberg FRG. I lived in Dias Bach and worked in Patton Barracks and commuted over the mountain on the new Kwacker 750 Triple that I brought with me as Household goods. It was the first one in Germany and we destroyed the 750 cc Street stock class, which everyone knew were not stock. But it was probably the only stock bike on the track that first year. I traded up to the 900 four and for the first time I had a bike which handled well, or so I thought until I rode a Norton Commando Caffe Racer! That second season we did well enough to earn a Sponsored ride on a TZ-1 Yamaha water pumper that came in a crate and had to be assembled by the buyer. It had two sets of cylinders and pistons so it could run in either the 250, or 350 cc classes. It did 165 with the 350s in it in the traps at Hockenheim Ring south of Heidelberg, which was my home track. I crashed the bike at speed in front of my wife and kids and 35 of my Platoonies right under the TV camera stand broadcasting to 17 million Germans coming out of the Ost Curve? That was the end of that because until that time my wife did not know how dangerous it was. So when we came home for the first time in almost 7 years, I bought a CanAm dirt bike for all the "slow" dirt sports. Did you know they would go over the tonne right out of the crate?

 

[GregP]

Yep. All the big off road bikes will go fast, assuming they are WRs. They accelerate like a bat outta' hell with motocross gearing, but only in the motocross speed ranges. Give me a WR any day.

My old favorite in the woods was a Husky 390 WR, but any Can Am WR was a serious contender. The primary factor was the person riding it. Disk Burleson was fast in the woods on anything. He could do 75 mph in woods and never hit a tree when most of us were seriously dodging trees at 45 mph.

None of which has anything to do with Luftwaffe aircraft, but IS fun to remember on occasion. Of all the riding I did, Observed Trials was the most fun by long shot.