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Hey Biff,
Was it Lefty Gardner's White Lightning you sat in? I was there and also was there when Kevin Eldridge bailed out. Never thought at the time I'd know him some 30 years later! Great guy, and a lucky one, too. It wasn't pretty when the oil line broke. I went out some 3-4 days later with a good friend ( Ron Saum, we rode Observed Trials motorcycles together and his son, Andy, was Arizona state champion several times) who worked at the GM proving Grounds and found a few parts.
Lefty's P-38 was always dirty and Pat & Joe Yancey sprayed 409 all over it at that show and it shined a bit better ... looked whiter anyway. That was a long time ago, seems like maybe 1985 to 1987, but I can't really recall the exact year. Old memories get older and I can't understand people who remember the year and day when are where they were in WWII, but there are guys who DO recall it. I have a hard time remembering what I had for lunch on Wednesday of last week! ... but I still recall electrical engineering school almost class by class. Maybe I have reason to think of it more. Still, I can remember Kevin's Super Corsair plight VERY clearly, just not the exact year and day. He went out over the left side and should have gone out over the right side. Maybe he would not have hit the horizontal tail ...
As you well know, that's now the Red Bull P-38 and it is all shiny Aluminum. It is a P-38-L-5 (44-53254) with early cowlings, so it looks like an early model, but isn't. But ... you know that already. Lefty flew a good show that day, didn't he?
REPORT OF OSCAR PILOT
Tests at 5,000, 10,000 ft.
"We climbed to 5,000 feet and began maneuvering. The P-38 climbed faster in both rate of climb and air speed to 5,000 feet. I used 30" and 2100 RPM on all maneuvers.
"The P-38 dove on the OSCAR's tail and in a steep turn to the left the OSCAR was on the P-38's tail in one and a half turns. The same results were obtained on a turn to the right. The turns were made level but, if the P-38 made steep climbing turns, the OSCAR was unable to keep enough speed to stay with the P-38.
"Pulling up into a hammer-head stall, the P-38 overran the OSCAR and, after the OSCAR kicked off, the P-38 dropped down on its tail. By looping very tightly from 240 mph, the OSCAR could get on the P-38's tail, but the latter did not have speed to loop so just leveled out on top of a stall.
"I then made a head-on pass at the P-38, rolling on my back and Split S-ing after passing. The P-38 pulled up into the sun and I lost it. I would have been unable to catch it in a climb away.
"The OSCAR dove on the P-38 and had no trouble staying behind it in turns both to the left and right. The OSCAR tended to overrun the P-38 by staying inside the turns. When combat flaps were used on the P-38, it was easy to stay behind by cutting throttle to keep from overrunning.
"In a hammer-head stall, the P-38 outclimbed and outran the OSCAR, but on kicking off and diving the OSCAR could turn inside and follow the P-38 far enough down to get a good shot.
"The P-38 again outclimbed and outran the OSCAR in the hammer-head stalls, the OSCAR dropping to 60 mph. When the P-38 climbed above the OSCAR, it could kick off and get a shot at the OSCAR on the dive. The P-38 tried a loop with the OSCAR but the OSCAR was one and one-half times around before the P-38 completed its loop.
"The OSCAR then dove on the P-38's tail and, in steep turns to the right and left, had no trouble staying with the P-38. The steeper the turn, the more the OSCAR tended to overrun the P-38.
"In level turns the OSCAR turned inside the P-38's turns. When the P-38 made steep climbing turns, the OSCAR lost speed and could not hold its nose on the P-38.
"In following the P-38 on the way down, the OSCAR could stay in easy gun range on all maneuvers except fast climbs or dives over 300 mph. The OSCAR followed the P-38 up into an Immelman, rolling out at 50 mph on top. The controls are very loose at that speed but it can stay right on the P-38's tail. On rolls to the right and left--200 to 28O mph—-the OSCAR stayed with the P-38; also in Split S's and rolls straight down up to 300 mph."
REPORT OF P-38 PILOT
Tests at 5,000, 10,000 ft.
"On all turns and tight maneuvers, the OSCAR is definitely superior and will stay with a P-38 in all acrobatics by doing the same maneuvers more quickly.
"The P-38 will outclimb the OSCAR at all the altitudes from ground level to 10,000 feet. Using 4O" of manifold pressure and 2600 RPM, the P-38 is far superior in speed and climb.
"Combat flaps used in turns only served to slow the P-38 down and were useless in trying to turn with the OSCAR.
"In doing an Immelman, the OSCAR could stay with a P-38 by pulling up to 50 mph.
"The P-38 can dive away from OSCAR or get out of range after diving speed has reached about 300 mph.
"The angle of climb of the P-38 is much flatter than that of the OSCAR, and holding it at 3,000 feet per minute ascent the P-38 will end up far ahead and above the OSCAR.
"The P-38 can turn with the OSCAR by climbing steeply and turning at the same time. However, the turn should be about 50° and rate of climb about 3,000 feet a minute.
"In a diving turn on an OSCAR's tail, the P-38 can hold a lead for the first 60° of the turn only."
REPORT OF OSCAR PILOT
Tests at 20,000 feet
"I climbed the OSCAR to 20,000 feet and met the P-38 over the field. Full throttle at 20,000 feet was 20 to 22" and I used 2300 RPM in all maneuvers. The IAS cruising was 140. The P-38 dove on the OSCAR's tail and in the initial 180° turn the OSCAR got out of gun range. In two turns the OSCAR still was 180° from the P-38's tail and losing speed fast. The P-38 lost 1,000 feet in four turns and enabled the OSCAR to gain a little, but it still was a long way from obtaining a shot. In turns to the right the OSCAR still could not get a shot. I had some trouble with the throttle slipping and the canopy coming Open, but after anchoring both I still could not get on the P-38's tail. In level turns the OSCAR's speed dropped very fast and in the same radius turn as the P-38 it was difficult to maintain altitude.
"The OSCAR then dove on the P-38, and with only 1,000 feet advantage in height the P-38 had to turn under the OSCAR with the result that, the OSCAR could get on the P-38's tail, IAS after diving being only 160 mph. With this air speed, the OSCAR easily stayed behind the P-38 on both turns to the right and left and tended to overrun. The P-38 put down combat flaps after two turns and the OSCAR had to cut the throttle to keep from over-running.
"When the P-38 looped, the OSCAR followed it up, and by turning inside the P-38 it ended up on its back about 500 feet below the P-38 with an IAS of 50 mph. On diving down, the OSCAR was in position to shoot at the P-38.
"A series of loops and Immelmans were done between 20,000 feet and 15,000 feet with the OSCAR easily staying behind the P-38, most of the time in position for a shot. In long climbs the P-38 pulled far enough ahead for a turn into the OSCAR for a head-on pass.
"In a series of Split S's, loops and Immelmans, the OSCAR stayed with the P-38 and in any maneuver involving a turn could get an easy shot. On straight climbs the P-38 easily left the OSCAR.
"On turns at 20,000 feet, the P-38 can stall out the OSCAR by making steep climbing turns, or if the P-38 dives on the OSCAR it can turn with the OSCAR as it likes, unless the OSCAR has an IAS of 170 or more to start."
REPORT OF P-38 PILOT
Tests at 20,000 feet
"I used 45" and 3000 RPM on take-off and climbed 3,500 to 4,000 feet per minute to 20,000 feet. I flew on OSCAR's wing during speed test at 13,000 feet indicating 210 mph. I climbed to 21,000 feet and dove on OSCAR's tail indicating 210 mph. OSCAR made a right turn and continued around for four turns without getting into position for a shot. However, he was out-turning me slightly. I lost about 1,000 feet in the turns which seemed to help the OSCAR maintain better speed. On a turn to the left, indicating 210 mph, I kept at exactly 20,000 feet nose high position, and OSCAR could not turn any tighter than the P-38. When I slowed down to 110 mph, he still could not gel on my tail.
"I was flying the P-38 at 200 mph IAS and the OSCAR dived on me, I made a sharp turn to the right, pulling in until on the three and a half turn I stalled out. The OSCAR was in a firing position all the time. On the left turn, the OSCAR stayed in firing position. I pulled maneuver flaps when the third 360 degree, air speed 150 IAS, and OSCAR cut throttle back and pulled inside me until I stalled out about 180 degrees after I put flaps down.
"I followed the OSCAR into a loop, airspeed 250 mph IAS, and had to put down maneuver flaps to finish the loop. The OSCAR was started on the second loop when I went over the top and settled on my tail as I came out. The OSCAR followed me into a loop and stayed inside the loop to the top of mine, then half rolled and came over on me, and half rolled again on my tail and followed through the rest of the loop.
"While returning to the field from 20,000 feet, I tried every maneuver I could think of and the OSCAR out-maneuvered me every time. I could outclimb it in a high speed low angle climb, then do a tight 180 degree and meet the OSCAR head on. I could also out-dive OSCAR easily. In high speed climbing turns, it was impossible for the OSCAR to keep in range or to keep his sights on me."
Based on this I find it hard to believe that P-38 could keep with Oscar.
At the end of the day you're leaving out one important aspect - pilot skill.
And all true, but again consider the total picture when hearing about someone like John Tilley who did turn inside an Oscar at 90 knts, shoot down the aircraft and live to tell about, and I know he wasn't the only one who managed to do this.I'm not leaving it Flyboyj, I am fully aware that good pilot will bring best of his aircraft and bad pilot will struggle with basics. But pilot skill is something hard to measure and harder to put into equation, thus a standard tests carried on captured equipment are a decent way to judge things. No perfect by all means, but they give perspective.
How about considering the Japanese pilot lacked either skill or training?!?!we dont know the point of view of that poor guy who got shot down. Maybe he was wounded ? Maybe his aircraft was damaged or exhibited unexpected problems ? Any of this could happen and be the reason why good pilot such as Mr John Tilley managed to get a firing solution.
From what I could see it seemed like some units had earlier model P-38s well into 1944. This may be due to "attrition replacement' where individual tail numbers may not be replaced with a newer aircraft until it has flown a certain amount of hours or until the airframe is lost or "beyond economical repair." Although later model P-38s offered great improvements over earlier models, the specific theater combined with operational results might not have warranted the rapid replacement of these aircraft.I also have a question in regard to P-38, F model specifically. Do anyone know when last of them were replaced on the frontlines ? When going through Pacific Wrecks I was able to find F models in combat all the way to 1944.
1. when in a dogfight could the pilot use throttles to change how the engines worked? i mean one engine on full power the other on half. if so how would the change the flight characteristics, is there any advantage to doing something like this?
2. what about the dive brake? could using it make turns tighter or slow the plane down so they didn't over shoot the target?
1. Yes, by doing that you can tighten your radius of turn and gain a momentary advantage and, as has been said, it was only used sparingly and by the best pilots. I remember reading a detailed explanation by a P-38 pilot in a book years ago.
I started on a Kwacker 500 triple while I was stationed in Ethiopia and it was fast for the time. It would do an honest 125 according to the timer's stop watch. I did not know that it handled like crap until much later when I was stationed in Heidelberg FRG. I lived in Dias Bach and worked in Patton Barracks and commuted over the mountain on the new Kwacker 750 Triple that I brought with me as Household goods. It was the first one in Germany and we destroyed the 750 cc Street stock class, which everyone knew were not stock. But it was probably the only stock bike on the track that first year. I traded up to the 900 four and for the first time I had a bike which handled well, or so I thought until I rode a Norton Commando Caffe Racer! That second season we did well enough to earn a Sponsored ride on a TZ-1 Yamaha water pumper that came in a crate and had to be assembled by the buyer. It had two sets of cylinders and pistons so it could run in either the 250, or 350 cc classes. It did 165 with the 350s in it in the traps at Hockenheim Ring south of Heidelberg, which was my home track. I crashed the bike at speed in front of my wife and kids and 35 of my Platoonies right under the TV camera stand broadcasting to 17 million Germans coming out of the Ost Curve? That was the end of that because until that time my wife did not know how dangerous it was. So when we came home for the first time in almost 7 years, I bought a CanAm dirt bike for all the "slow" dirt sports. Did you know they would go over the tonne right out of the crate?Hi Pbehn,
I know what you mean. I competed on motorcycles for 20 years and have heard various bikes described by different "riders" different ways. One rider remembered the Kawasaki 900 as unbeatable. I recall head shake and a LOT of frame flex, making it a bike that was both powerful as well as very scary when anywhere NEAR the limits of traction.
I quit road racing, after fixing and selling the 750 Suzuki, at age 44 after low-siding at 165 mph and sliding into hay bales somewhere about the middle of a turn. Thing is, I was mostly riding Observed Trials and really didn't have any business out on a paved road course anyway. I was doing it, "for fun," and it wasn't when you fell. Ruined a brand new $1,000 pair of Bates leathers, but also walked away sore instead of seriously injured. The leathers did their job, after a fashion, as did the Shoei helmet. Expensive afternoon for the wallet. But I was running in third at the time, so I think back on it with some fondness that was absent when it happened.
I couldn't use differential throttle to help turn because there was only one engine and the swingarm didn't flex like the old bikes! The Kawasaki 750 Triple had a LOT of frame and swingarm flex coupled with a very "pipey" engine setup that left the front end in the air at various odd times when all you wanted was a short acceleration to the next turn. When the front came down, it would head shake even with a steering damper! I hate tank slappers ... especially when I'm the rider! It certainly interferes with your style as a rider.
Maybe I hit "critical Mach! (Recall the 750 Triple was called a "Mach III"). Did you ever race a Suzuki 500 Titan Twin? Now there was an odd duck of a bike. Not remembering it with any special fondness, like with a Yamaha RD350.
I'd love to talk bikes and trade some "scares," but that might seriously wander off-topic in a P-38 Dogfighting thread, eh what? Back to P-38s ... and strange aerodynamic possibilities. I have definitely read that the elevator balances were completely unnecessary, but were placed there at the direction of the USAAF (or USAAC at the timne), specifically the commander of aircraft procurement. But I have no proof of same. I just read about that somewhere in the past. Can't recall quite where, but it seems like the source was a Ben Kelsey interview sometime post-war.
Good one, FlyboyJ!