Duel at Dessau

schwarzpanzer said:

It was believed before, that a KT was never penetrated frontally. This Forum has shown that the turret front was pierced

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Do you actually read what I write in my posts? I claimed the front galcis was never penetrated in combat. Nor did it ever split or fall apart.

schwarzpanzer said:

I suppose on the spalling/weld craking thing - the Soviet guns were large, and relied on this effect and were: 85mm, 100mm, 122mm and 152mm.

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Where is the actual EVIDENCE for this Soviet propaganda nonsense??There isn't even one picture of Tiger II's cracking or splitting. There ARE pictures of large numbers of hits on King Tiger's front glacis plate that failed to penetrate time and time again though.

Don't believe Soviet bullcrap about Tiger IIs falling apart due to poor armour.

schwarzpanzer said:

Also, Soviet armour was apparently very prone to spalling, so even the 75mm KwK 40 caused spalling on the IS-2s armour.

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You have got to be kidding me. Are you seriously suggesting that T34s and IS-2s were built to the same quality as German tanks? If anyone actually has a close up look at WW2 soviet tanks you will see how badly they were put together. The weld joins are off and the plates often don't even angle up properly. The casting is poor, the steel quality finish is super rough, almost crude.
The Soviets didn't care. They just wanted to make as many as they could and didn't bother going for the immaculate and eye pleasing finish that the Germans did.
NO WAY were Soviet tanks built to the same 'quality' as German tanks.
German tanks had better quality steel and gun optics (best in the world) and had better precision engineering than any Soviet tank. That was one of the reasons why Germany didn't build enough. They built them TOO well if anything. The Soviets (in contrast) didn't care about quality.

schwarzpanzer said:

Apparently, the Panzershreck could only penetrat 160mm of vertical armour - making the frotal arc of the KT quite safe from it.

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Once again you are incorrect. Panzerschreck rocket could penetrate over 200 mm of armor.
Yet at almost point blank range it couldn't penetrate the King Tiger's front glacis plate and no THE TANK DIDN'T FALL APART OR SPLIT IT'S WELDS.
Panzerschreck was considered deadly to even the Soviet IS-2 tanks frontally during the Berlin battles.
These things (and panzerfausts) gave the Soviets more nightmares than tanks during the Berlin fighting, because often they couldn't even see where they were hidden in the rubble right in front of them at 100 yards or less.

schwarzpanzer said:

I suppose that is a misleading question. By this point, everything was in turmoil - so if a KT got seperated and ended up at Dessau?... Not saying that is definately what happened,but it is possible. If the crew were lost, distressed, sperated, tired and alone, it would also explain why they weren't so on the ball.

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No its absolutely impossible that there were detached units with single King Tigers which remain unidentified. In addition to the actual movements and combat records of the 'battalions' proper, we also know all about these last minute gathered together ad hoc units as well, such as Rgt Holzer or Gruppe Fehrmann, or Pz Dv Clausewitz and Paderborn etc.
None of them had any King Tigers anywhere near Dessau. Don't you think it's very suspicious that we DO have pics of the 'regular' Pershing which took out the Tiger I at Elsdorf in Feb 1944 but we don't have any of the even more fascinating 'Super Pershing v King Tiger' duel at Dessau. The wreck would have been there for ages, U.S troops occupied the town and the war was at an end. The perfect opportunity to document and capture in images this tussel...yet there is nothing.
The allies claimed to fight Tigers everywhere. They didn't.

schwarzpanzer said:

- and, depending on how this Thread pans out, maybe the lower front hull too. Maybe evidence will emerge that the glacis was penetrated?

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FACT: NO KING TIGERS WERE AT DESSAU AND THE FRONT GLACIS WAS NEVER PENETRATED IN COMBAT! End of story!

schwarzpanzer said:

the Kubinka tests show that the initial hits were made by 122mm's - and penetrated (though this happening in combat would be unlikely, IMO).

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Training ground tests are worthless. Of course the armour gets easier to penetrate after lobbing lots of 122 mm AP and HE shells at it. The tank you are firing at isn't firing back and repeated hits on a static object that is dead and not alive isn't telling. You have time to engage and refine your shots easily.

schwarzpanzer said:

The Soviets though, always pelted any vehicle they came across with large-calibre guns, rather than aimed shots using smaller-calibre ones. This is shown with what happened to the Ferdinands at Kursk - all those lost vehicles could have been repaired, but were still technically KO'd. There are several tyes of AFV 'kill': Mobility being just one (Forget the exact terms for the rest, sorry ).

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Large-calibred guns such as 122mm or 100mm were not used by Soviet tanks until 1944. Some ML-20 155mm howitzers were deployed by a few artillery regiments in 1943 though. Most of the Ferdidands were destroyed by the Germans themselves after mechanical breakdowns.

schwarzpanzer said:

Yes, Panther Gs were also poor quality, though I'd say variable. IIRC the Panther in the Kubinka trials was an Ausf A (earlier) - and had better quality armour than the KT.

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Yet many tank guns still failed to penetrate the Panther's front glacis plate, nor did it slpit or spall.
The King Tiger's armour was poorer in quality than the Tiger I and early Panther Ausf.A but it still wasn't 'crap' and it's sheer thickness made up for it.

tanker1408 said:

Now go back to your doctor and get that brain scanned again.

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You were warned! We told you before to knock it off with the personal attacks and name calling.

That was strike 2! One more and your out!

You can debate this topic without being an *******! Act like an adult...

tanker1408 said:

Hahahahaahahaha. Sureeeeeeeeeeeeeee this scenario would expand the 1 million chance rather to be 1 billion to one chance - A few weeks before end of WW2, rarest tank in the entire ETO meets rarest german tank in an area where no King Tiger units were anywhere operating, plus the untrained KT crew has been injured, members were killed, they ran out of APC rounds etc etc.

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Great one Fast, very funny.

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tanker1408 said:

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What's the matter? Whether you're right or wrong is mute. You wouldn't have caught this much flak if it wasn't for the attitude you showed.

tanker1408 said:

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Yes sometimes it is better to keep quiet. Think before you post...

If you can't say it without insulting anyone, don't say it.

Nice Avatar...

Hi everyone,

tanker1408 said:

Now go back to your doctor and get that brain scanned again.

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If that was aimed at me, I actually find it quite funny. I see that you've edited it out though anyway, I took it in humour, but please try to restrain yourself. You have made an excellent point - maybe there wasn't even a single KT at Dessau, maybe it is a tall tale, but if you get booted, no-one will ever know the truth, will they? I hope you stick around tanker, as you seem to have a lot to contribute.

I suppose this may be one of those things that's just impossible to prove/disprove either way. Anyway, if it did happen - then the KT wasn't used properly, so IMO it can't be considered a fair head-to-head.


Can I please ask everyone else not to insult tanker though please? It makes it worse, and it seems a little like bullying. Passionate people often seem to give a lot of info, at the expense of seeming hot-headed.


I must admit fastmongrel, that I like that pic though - so true of me!


Hi timshatz,

hehe alchoholic Easter Eggs? Thanks very much mate!


Hi tanker,

I know there's no evidence that the glacis was penetrated in combat, I was just saying that new info comes out all the time. It was, at least, theoretically possible.

The armour quality on the KT was tested, and found to be wanting. They said that the Tigers Ferdinands quality was excellent though- which doesn't sound like propaganda to me. Of course, it may be more accurate to say 'variable', rather than 'poor' - as some may have been of decent quality. Also, the fact that the KTs armour was thick, sloped interlocked reduced the effect of poor quality plates an welding.

I said Soviet armour was poor quality! (depending on your viewpoint) - hard, but brittle - which has no advantages against an enemy who uses mainly APCBC. Early IS-2 armour was both soft brittle (as prototype IS-1s were rearmed with the 122mm thrown into combat). The fact that the German 75mm could damage IS-2 armour shows how bad it was. So I was agreeing with you. However, even this 'brittle Soviet armour' thing may be a Western myth? - which may need more research...

Rough finish does not matter - looks arent important on an AFV. There was a saying among Soviet WW2 tank manufacturers, something along the lines of: Factory - Flatcar - Frontline!

German tanks had better optics, yes, but they had run out of various metals used for making arour plate steel alloys - unavoidably meaning inferior quality materials. They even had to resort to making some AFVs out of mild steel at one point.

If you watch Tank Overhaul, the Panther episode (Jaques Littlefields) - you will see that it was hardly what you could call 'built well'.

The Panzershreck has come up on here before, I originally thought 200mm too - but CharlesBronson said it was 160mm. Another person on here has now said 209mm. I suppose this is one for a new thread?... Anyway, the Panzerfaust had better performance than the 'Shrek - perhaps this causes confusion? Point-blank range doesn't matter with HEAT rounds - penetration is the same, regardless of range. The IS-2 had an absolute maximum of 120mm armour, the turret only 90-100mm - so yes, of course a Shreck would beat it. Some sourses say 160mm though. HEAT rounds do not work by destroying the tank like Soviets rounds did - they essentialy caused the tank to destroy itself - using its own ammo fuel supply etc against it, though they could also cause lots of internal damage.

No its absolutely impossible that there were detached units with single King Tigers which remain unidentified.

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Impossible? I must admit, you're points are making it seem less and less likely.

Don't you think it's very suspicious that we DO have pics of the 'regular' Pershing which took out the Tiger I at Elsdorf in Feb 1944 but we don't have any of the even more fascinating 'Super Pershing v King Tiger' duel at Dessau. The wreck would have been there for ages, U.S troops occupied the town and the war was at an end. The perfect opportunity to document and capture in images this tussel...yet there is nothing.

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It might seem a bit suspicious, but not everything in war gets documented. The only way to know for sure is to keep digging. Perhaps the truth will only emerge when our grandchildren are old frail? Keep pursuing your own research though, I'm sure you'll turn up some good stuff.

The allies claimed to fight Tigers everywhere. They didn't.

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True, 'Tigerphobia' - perhaps this KT was just a Panther after all? I guess the same Tiger may have been fought over and over again. Some that were 'knocked out' were repaired and fought again.

Training ground tests are worthless. Of course the armour gets easier to penetrate after lobbing lots of 122 mm AP and HE shells at it. The tank you are firing at isn't firing back and repeated hits on a static object that is dead and not alive isn't telling. You have time to engage and refine your shots easily.

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True, which is exactly what I said. An IS-2 getting within range of a KT head-on would be near impossible, but if it did, then it would be able to penetrate it. To date though, there is no evidence to say this actually happened. (Though it did in a side-on ambush). Both were rare vehicles, remember, with few encounters between them.

122mm tank guns weren't even used by the Soviets until 1944!! A small number of ML-20 155mm howitzers were employed during 1943 by a few artillery regiments, though very unlikely they killed even one Ferdindand. Most of them were destroyed by the Germans themselves, after mechanical breakdowns.

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I think the A-19 was used at Kursk? (1943). The ML-20s knocked out a lot of Ferdinands - but these were returned to service (a lot of crewmembers were killed though). Remember, an AFV doesn't have to be a molten pool of metal before its considered a KO - so long as it's out of action on the day, thats what counts.

The King Tiger's armour was poorer in quality than the Tiger I and early Panther Ausf.A but it still wasn't 'crap' and it's sheer thickness made up for it.

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I know, but if it did allow spalling, then it was very flawed. Admittedly though, if it only happened with calibres above 100mm, then it didn't have very much to worry about - except for indirect fire from artillery pieces.