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Yet aside from two accounts from an author trying to peddle his book, no record of those witnesses exists. No police statements, memoirs, diaries, etc. And there are still many people alive today from that time period and/or their families, and none of those witnesses can be found by any recent expeditions. Most credible authors when interviewing witnesses get a documented and witnessed signed statement from their sources. Yet somehow these two authors did not. And one of those authors was supposedly a trained FBI agent that knows without backing evidence eye witness testimony especially after a great deal of time has passed, is the least credible evidence of all.witness after witness came forth
I am sorry if you perceived that as ridicule it was meant as humor to relieve a little of the built up tension. And my whole point is I don't have a preconceived notion, I don't know what did or did not happen to them, and I seriously doubt the veracity of this and many other stories that have surfaced over the years.you continually resort to ridicule when things don't match your preconceived notions.
Will agree with you totally PLUS it makes it so much more difficult for anything else to follow this line.Did I mention that this sort of 'history' programme really grinds my gears
One of Plato's objections to laughter is germane here, it is malicious. In Philebus (48–50), he analyzes the enjoyment of comedy as a form of scorn. "Taken generally," he says, "the ridiculous is a certain kind of evil, specifically a vice." That vice is self-ignorance: the people we laugh at imagine themselves to be wealthier, better looking, or more virtuous than they really are. In laughing at them, we take delight in something evil—their self-ignorance—and that malice is morally objectionable.it was meant as humor
Your very words and post belie that. I don't know either but I am open to all the various theories finding some closer to possible reality than others. Some I consider to be really out there in left field like Earhart being Tokyo Rose or a New Jersey housewife Irene Bolam.I don't have a preconceived notion
I think that is true, if one is being laughed at. However I was not laughing at you at all so I am not sure I follow. However according to modern psychology, humor and laughter are some of the healthiest emotions. Plato was cool, but he is not all that and a box of crackers.That vice is self-ignorance: the people we laugh at imagine themselves to be wealthier, better looking, or more virtuous than they really are. In laughing at them, we take delight in something evil—their self-ignorance—and that malice is morally objectionable.
Okay, guess I will take your word on that but not sure how you came to that conclusion. Perhaps the same way you came to the conclusion that she was captured by, and subsequently executed by the Japanese. I clearly stated in numerous posts in this thread that I make no claim to any particular belief or story. I find some more believable or at least plausible than others. But not having a specific theory of my own does not mean I have a preconceived idea or notion, in fact at least as I understand the english language and grammatical usage, admittedly poorly, it means the exact opposite?Your very words and post belie that. I don't know either but I am open to all the various theories finding some closer to possible reality than others. Some I consider to be really out there in left field like Earhart being Tokyo Rose or a New Jersey housewife Irene Bolam.
His dog wags its tail and licks his hand..Kim Jong-un might be a good guy.
I guess I jumped to that conclusion because of your strong anti responses to the capture theory and then your resort to ridicule of the people proposing it. I never felt that any of it was directed at me but why impune the character of an unknown author unless you have direct knowledge of his mendacity. I do understand circumstantial evidence and heresay but in certain circumstances it's all you have and when hundreds of people echo essentially the same story you have to at least begin to wonder.not sure how you came to that conclusion.
Very true but again base on what is actually documented the 42 gph is reasonable and Yea another assunption. Remember, this issue was discussed at length with Art Kennedy, who had overhauled her engines prior to the second attempt, and who calibrated her engines with PRATT & WHITNEY factory test equipment. His test cell engine records still exist and barring fuel cell leakage and gross mixture control mismanagement, she had between 4.5 and 5.5 hours of fuel remaining after her 20:14 [8:44 am Howland Time] transmission. This calculation was made by Kennedy a man who would know. Secondly, again documented, we can apply the plane's performance during its 2,400-mile Oakland to Honolulu flight in March 1937. Records show that the Electra consumed 617 of the 947 gallons it held during the fifteen-hour, fifteen-minute Honolulu flight, for an average per-hour burn rate of 38.97 gallons. Round that off to forty gallons per hour. At Lae, loaded with 200 more gallons (1,200 pounds) the plane was about 800 pounds heavier, add one gallon per hour for the extra weight (which would decrease with time) and another gallon per hour in consideration of the plane's climb to higher altitudes after leaving Lae. With 1,156 gallons departing Lae, at an average consumption of 42 gph, at 20 hours 15 minutes, she had burned 850.50 gallons of fuel and had close to 6 hours left before fuel exhaustion so dropping that to 4 hours still gives her flight time.
Joe, as a pilot would you ditch in the open ocean given a choice or would you stay in the air as long as possible?
Mike, US military ships made port calls. If Roosevelt was that anxious to find out what was in this area he could have sent several B-17s with the most advanced cameras of the day to fly all over the area and no one would have ever known they were there.Yes, there were, but none trying to over fly a Japanese territory that they had been keeping as totally restricted as possible for years and had denied everyone access. The very reason Roosevelt was so anxious to find out exactly what they were up to in this area. Based on this another theory is that Earhart never intended to land at Howland but intended to "get lost" thus giving the US Navy an excuse to search in restricted areas. Joe, think militarily. If you had asked a superior permission to do something and been denied and then did it anyway what would be the result? As opposed to doing without asking and asking forgiveness afterward? So Earhart ASKING and being DENIED makes any type of overflight so much worse if/when captured.
Mike, I'm pretty open minded but I'm sorry, with a hand full of sketchy and contradicting witnesses, the story doesn't hold water. Ships, transferring through ports, flights on seaplanes, would have left thousands of eye witnesses and despite the discipline within the Japanese military during WW2, if this was indeed true, someone CREDIBLE within the Japanese military would have come forward with the truth after the war.Yea, it's the "nutcases" that give conspiracy theory a bad rep. I've been called MUCH worse in my time. I do realize that I can be and possibly am wrong but, IMHO the crash land, rescue, in Japanese hands, imprisonment scenario is highly plausible
I would tend to agree that ridicule can be a powerful disincentive, however in this particular case several of the key pieces of evidence including the photo, and the ship in use, have been shown to be frauds, purposely and knowingly perpetrated frauds. Therefor not only ridicule but also scorn is appropriate. Anyone truly interested in the truth would not have committed fraud in furtherance of their goal.Such ridicule bothers me because it closes the door to highly qualified people with reputations to maintain who might otherwise investigate the various theories. It's also the reason so many of the higher echelon witnesses won't commit themselves on paper.
I consider the majority of people on this site to be intelligent, educated, skilled and well above average yet review the tones of their anti-posts: Quod Erat Demonstrandum
And what little documentary evidence has been found is either open to interpretation or in some cases, like the photo, has been found to be not at all applicable and indeed was even used fraudulently.
My mistake, I was under the impression that the author of the book also used that photo, in which case it would be fraudulent as even the most basic of fact checking would have turned that fact up.I agree with just about everything in your post, but I don't think the photograph was used fraudulently. I don't think that the programme makers knew it was taken in 1935, so there was no intent to deceive. The fact that they didn't bother to undertake even the most basic historical research to establish the provenance of the photograph, the linchpin of their documentary, illustrates very slapdash programme making and reflects very badly on both the producers and their so called researchers, but I don't think it was done with malice, just with ignorance.
Had they bothered to thoroughly research the photograph, then they would have had no programme! That does raise the possibility of wilful ignorance, in which case you would have a point. The question is whether we believe that the producers were stupid enough to intentionally not look too hard to discover the real provenance of the photograph because they thought it might not support their contention, or whether they were just stupid, shoddy and slapdash in their historical research. In neither case do they come out smelling of roses.
I'm still awaiting an apology from 'History', but I doubt we'll get one. The programme will probably be repeated, unedited, in years to come.
Did I mention that this sort of thing really grinds my gears
Cheers
Steve
Robert, rest assured, that thought never entered what's still left of my mind. I do however object to it being used aimed at anyone as a counter to a point of contention.none of my ridicule is aimed at you
Yea, the American way though again in many cases a legitimate attempt to find a solution. Getting to the "scene of the crime" to do any field work/research/interviews/etc. is very expensive and needs to be underwritten in most cases so now "entertainment value" enters the picture.trying to profit from that interest.
Yea, it would be a wonderful thing if everyone doing anything illegal/immoral would just document/photograph/record it so we could nail them with it at some point in time. Unfortunately so much of this happens sub rosa for that very reason so circumstantial is all you have. We can differ on whether the Japanese captured and held them but I think we could probably agree that if they did they would not want to announce that to the world community from which they were already being marginalized due to their actions in China/Manchuria/SE Asia.no hard evidence
Motive is missing,
Here we depart. The Japanese were absolutely obsessive about keeping outsiders away from the Mandate. It really doesn't matter if or what was going on or if Earhart/Noonan saw or filmed anything the mere fact that they were there and could have was a guilty verdict especially in such a backwater isolated part of the Empire far removed from any type of civilian control. Then once begun backing up and admitting error is to loose face, not something that's going to happen in Japanese culture. Consider Otto Warmbier, he took a POSTER!!! and the N. Koreans jailed him for a year and a half and somehow he ended up in a coma and died after being released AND No One Don't Know Nothing!!! Think any hard official records still exist?THE JAPANESE HAD NO MOTIVE.
I disagree but grant you your point. The amount of fuel loaded at Lea is a hard fact at 1156 gallons. The Electra's fuel consumption from Oakland to Honolulu in March at 38.97 gph is a hard fact. A hard fact detailed engineering report was prepared by a young Lockheed engineer named Clarence L. ("Kelly") Johnson to provide data for the best takeoff, climb and cruise performance with the very heavily loaded airplane. The maximum speed for the Model 10E Special at Sea Level and maximum takeoff weight was 177 miles per hour (284.9 kilometers per hour), a reduction of 25 miles per hour (40.2 kilometers per hour) over the standard airplane. The maximum range was calculated to be 4,316 miles (6946 kilometers) using 1,151 gallons (4,357 liters) of fuel. Hard fact, Art Kennedy overhauled and calibrated her engines using Pratt & Whitney test equipment after which he gave her 4.5 to 5.5hrs additional flight time after her 20:14 transmission to the Itasca. Now that's not a hard fact but a calculation however Earhart at no time reported a fuel leak and she was well aware of proper mixture settings.interpret their fuel consumption
Shinpachi, one problem we will always face here it trying to translate Japanese written/spoken into English written. As you well know there are a number of methods of rendering Japanese in Roman letters. The Hepburn method of romanization, designed for English speakers, is a de facto standard widely used inside and outside Japan. The Kunrei-shiki system has a better correspondence with kana, which makes it easier for native speakers to learn. It is officially sanctioned by the Ministry of Education and often used by non-native speakers who are learning Japanese as a second language. Other systems of romanization include Nihon-shiki, JSL, and Wāpuro rōmaji. I find a Seikai Maru as a gunboat in the battle of the Coral Sea and the Harumi as an Ocean-going tug.Seikai Maru (or Harumi Maru) ?
Joe as I understand Noonan's DR methods: Cloudy conditions prevent Him from taking a celestial fix that night. At sunrise he has a sun azimuth of 67 degrees True and an LOP of 337-157. He knows his East/west position from the time of sunrise but not his North/South. He draws a 337-157 LOP on his chart and parallel LOP through Howland. Now that it is daylight he can approximate their ground speed and drift and thus determine the time required to fly the distance between his two LOPs. He tells Earhart they will reach his second LOP at 19:00 GMT. To find Howland they must now fly a ladder search North then South then North again the South further and further each time. Eventually she gives up and turns West towards the Gilbert Islands but she is further North than expected and reaches Mili Atoll instead of the Gilberts as was her back-up planshe flew a north/ south pattern in an effort to find Howland and no one knows how long she did that so even with 5 hours of fuel no one could accurately predict where she would wind up. Take her LKP and calculate a 5 hour flight radius (this was shown earlier) and it still puts her in the middle of nowhere
Joe, after the crash of the Model 229 the Army cut its order of the YB-17 to just 13 aircraft the first of which flew on 2 Dec 1936. When its brakes fused and it nosed over the Army quickly transferred all Yb-17s to Langley field Virginia to develop safety protocols and heavy bomber techniques. The YB-17A of which there was only one first flew 29 April 1938 so at the time of Earhart's flight the US heavy bomber fleet was 13 YB-17s. Not to mention the the US could not be MILITARILY interested in the Marshalls thus Roosevelt's use of civilians like Astor. I honestly don't think Earhart was trying to spy but was ask to "Keep her eyes open and camera handy"could have sent several B-17s with the most advanced cameras
Actually by this point the Japanese were thinking of a Pacific war and had thus begun to militarize the Marshalls. Ostensibly civilian structures they were constructed to military standards for easy conversion. Thus they had begun building air bases on several atolls. The Marshall Islands were in an important geographic position, being the easternmost point in Japan's defensive ring at the beginning of World War IIthere was no interest in this part of the world by the Japanese in 1937.
If only Governments were so straight forward and honest.it again would have benefited the Japanese to come clean in the post war years considering they did so when unit 731 was uncovered.
I snipped the rest of that part of the reply. But this illustrates part of my point. All of the hard facts you spoke of, actually have zip to do with her last leg. In order for those facts to become hard facts she communicated information at the end of each leg as to how she flew etc. Since she never got that chance we have no idea if she ran lean or rich, or if she had other issues like a strong headwind, or problems maintaining altitude because of icing or cloud cover or what. Literally anything could have happened. So to extrapolate past performance, even recent past performance is at best an educated guess and by no means a hard fact. And if you look over the entire history of her last flights, her GPH burn rate varied a lot! Most of the variance was due to environmental conditions. But the point is we don't really know. And we cannot depend on local weather forecasts for her route as not all the areas of her route were observed in that timeframe. Pacific weather is known for its localized volatility in fact, with downpour and gale force winds in one area, and 10 miles away clear skies and gentle wind.I disagree but grant you your point.
Shinpachi, one problem we will always face here it trying to translate Japanese written/spoken into English written. As you well know there are a number of methods of rendering Japanese in Roman letters. The Hepburn method of romanization, designed for English speakers, is a de facto standard widely used inside and outside Japan. The Kunrei-shiki system has a better correspondence with kana, which makes it easier for native speakers to learn. It is officially sanctioned by the Ministry of Education and often used by non-native speakers who are learning Japanese as a second language. Other systems of romanization include Nihon-shiki, JSL, and Wāpuro rōmaji. I find a Seikai Maru as a gunboat in the battle of the Coral Sea and the Harumi as an Ocean-going tug.
As to the Log Book it could easily been altered or the captain ordered not to include Earhart/Noonan in it, or even to alter locations and Dates. The captain would not have wanted to disobey the Kenpeitai