Crimea_River
Marshal
That's the theory I tried to explain in post 34, rather poorly I suppose.
Early Spitfire Bracket for "Instrument"
- Thread starter Tony Hill
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #42
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Thanks Geo, MiTasol and Andy,
Ok, starting to see where the confusion is guys....
That picture is mislabelled. It is of a VERY early Spitfire I (K9787, if memory serves) , not a II despite the caption, I've seen it before with that caption, in at least two places, possibly one copying the other!... firstly, no II had hand pump undercarriage (most "I's" hadn't) . second there are duel fuel gauges, next, there is a Flap Gauge, and lastly, the "knob" on the Landing Lamp Control is a ball, not a rectangular handle...all definitive, early Spitfire I features. I've also never seen a II with the mystery "mounting" or the hole in the panel next to where it sits.
Now the second photo in Andy's post is a Spitfire II. There is only one fuel gauge (placarded with the "Top tank is not gauged and contains 48 gallons at takeoff..blah blah blah..), the Fuel Pressure Gauge has been removed (common after the installation of a warning light) and just above bottom centre inside the spade grip, you can see the top of the Kygas Primer body and next to it, crucially for the current discussion, the fine line that is the top of the Slow Running Cut-out ring-pull.
Now, the Ring-pull in full view, that is about an inch higher than where the mystery mount goes and is, in fact, the Breech operation cable for the Coffman Cartridge Starter. Basically, when you have fired the starter and failed to start, you pull that ring to rotate the breech one position and line up a new Cartridge.
I really appreciate the continued research guys and I'm sorry to keep shooting it down and thereby appearing ungrateful!!! I am anything but!
Did I mention that I HATE early Spitfires!!!!
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #43
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Well, it has taken nearly two years of backwards and forwards but I think we have solved the mystery.
Richard from Airtech pointed out the other night that he couldn't see evidence of a Kygas Priming Pump on Frame 8 on the Prototype, even though there is clearly a 3 way Primingcock on the frame. That got me thinking and after a long night of searching I stumbled across an old Tractor Fuel priming pump that looked almost exactly like this:
This satisfies the three main conditions that I had on identifying the item vis
1. The need for a hole in the panel for wiring/piping to go through forward.
2. The retaining rings are bolt held, indicating a relatively "permanent" attachment
3. The bracket, towel rack, whatever you want to call it...is physically bolted TO the instrument panel, indicating the need for a certain amount of rigidity.
So it would appear that this is a priming pump, predating the use of the more familiar Kygas and, at least for my purposes, I'm calling this one "solved". The only question I have is whether that pump was fitted to all early Spitfires and removed in favour of the Kygas, or whether the bracket was included on early production Spitfires but the Kygas was introduced in the meantime. On that point, "Spitfire Knuckle" has always mystified me a little as there really doesn't seem to be any significant furniture in the way to hit. But if this pump was in the early production Spits.. it would have conceivably been in the way of the main pump handle.
The most significant clue would probably be had from the early drawings of Frame 8 (lacking the Kygas hole??) but alas, I have only ever found later drawings for the Spitfire I, including the automatic hydraulic landing gear pump. So it won't show that anyhow (nor does it show the Bowden cable routing of the Landing Lamp Control Dipping Lever)
Anyway, if anybody is interested, that is my new theory.
I'm not sure any of the pilots who flew well before the war are still with us to ask, or if they would remember such a minor detail?
regards
Darryl
Richard from Airtech pointed out the other night that he couldn't see evidence of a Kygas Priming Pump on Frame 8 on the Prototype, even though there is clearly a 3 way Primingcock on the frame. That got me thinking and after a long night of searching I stumbled across an old Tractor Fuel priming pump that looked almost exactly like this:
This satisfies the three main conditions that I had on identifying the item vis
1. The need for a hole in the panel for wiring/piping to go through forward.
2. The retaining rings are bolt held, indicating a relatively "permanent" attachment
3. The bracket, towel rack, whatever you want to call it...is physically bolted TO the instrument panel, indicating the need for a certain amount of rigidity.
So it would appear that this is a priming pump, predating the use of the more familiar Kygas and, at least for my purposes, I'm calling this one "solved". The only question I have is whether that pump was fitted to all early Spitfires and removed in favour of the Kygas, or whether the bracket was included on early production Spitfires but the Kygas was introduced in the meantime. On that point, "Spitfire Knuckle" has always mystified me a little as there really doesn't seem to be any significant furniture in the way to hit. But if this pump was in the early production Spits.. it would have conceivably been in the way of the main pump handle.
The most significant clue would probably be had from the early drawings of Frame 8 (lacking the Kygas hole??) but alas, I have only ever found later drawings for the Spitfire I, including the automatic hydraulic landing gear pump. So it won't show that anyhow (nor does it show the Bowden cable routing of the Landing Lamp Control Dipping Lever)
Anyway, if anybody is interested, that is my new theory.
I'm not sure any of the pilots who flew well before the war are still with us to ask, or if they would remember such a minor detail?
regards
Darryl
Attachments
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Ah Ha ! Solved - great stuff !
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
Congratulations. A well reasoned solution
Crimea_River
Marshal
Sounds good to me, FWIW.
fubar57
General
Well done
- Thread starter
- #48
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Thank you Gents... I am very pleased!
- Thread starter
- #49
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Well, I am truly amazed at how much stuff I find "on the way somewhere else".
I felt that the "Mystery Bracket" was safely put to bed with Richard Banks' excellent spot that the Prototype did not have a Kygas Primer but looked to have an old style tractor primer. I was left with a nagging question of whether any of the production aircraft had the same arrangement or if the bracket had just started to be installed on early airframes in anticipation and not used.
Then last night, while browsing through the "miscellaneous" section of drawings, including some with obscured numbers or titles, that have been put under that heading, there was the answer.
Regardless of the exact and in the photo, indistinct, mounting method of the Prototype's primer,
I give you 30062 Sht 42/G.
The bracket concerned was used for mounting the early type G22 Camera Controller in the cockpit. This control reset the camera which was single exposure rather than cine film.
The final clincher... the reference to Mod 69 Alt 21 is not much help on 30062 SHT42/G because it doesn't describe anything (and i can't find those mod details anywhere) BUT the reference to the same mods on the instrument panel sheet 30034 SHT 123 describes the omission of two 6BA bolts and a 5/8 hole on the panel....the only possible place for this IS that bracket on the starboard side, as the only other hole omitted later was the hole for the DH2 airscrew control Bowden cable which had no bolts associated!
I REALLY need to get a life
I felt that the "Mystery Bracket" was safely put to bed with Richard Banks' excellent spot that the Prototype did not have a Kygas Primer but looked to have an old style tractor primer. I was left with a nagging question of whether any of the production aircraft had the same arrangement or if the bracket had just started to be installed on early airframes in anticipation and not used.
Then last night, while browsing through the "miscellaneous" section of drawings, including some with obscured numbers or titles, that have been put under that heading, there was the answer.
Regardless of the exact and in the photo, indistinct, mounting method of the Prototype's primer,
I give you 30062 Sht 42/G.
The bracket concerned was used for mounting the early type G22 Camera Controller in the cockpit. This control reset the camera which was single exposure rather than cine film.
The final clincher... the reference to Mod 69 Alt 21 is not much help on 30062 SHT42/G because it doesn't describe anything (and i can't find those mod details anywhere) BUT the reference to the same mods on the instrument panel sheet 30034 SHT 123 describes the omission of two 6BA bolts and a 5/8 hole on the panel....the only possible place for this IS that bracket on the starboard side, as the only other hole omitted later was the hole for the DH2 airscrew control Bowden cable which had no bolts associated!
I REALLY need to get a life
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Yippee !!
Now, what other mysteries can you find ??!!
Now, what other mysteries can you find ??!!
VERSUCH
Airman 1st Class
Darryl...thats VERY impressive work ! WELL DONE Mate.
Cheers Mike
Cheers Mike
- Thread starter
- #52
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Thanks Terry & Mike,
A long road but we got there. Always looks a LOT shorter when you look backwards though, doesn't it!
Terry, plenty more mysteries to solve on early Spitfires.
A long road but we got there. Always looks a LOT shorter when you look backwards though, doesn't it!
Terry, plenty more mysteries to solve on early Spitfires.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Never would have guessed. Eureka moments always feel good!
- Thread starter
- #54
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Cheers Andy, yes they do...except for the feeling of having been a pillock for not finding it earlier...
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
Congratulations.
I love the feeling when I crack a difficult one and that one must surely have given you a well deserved high
I love the feeling when I crack a difficult one and that one must surely have given you a well deserved high
- Thread starter
- #56
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Cheers Mate...plenty more to solve. I have now found someone with copies of the Mod journals which means that I will have the dates that the mods were considered, reviewed, passed and implemented. As these dates are WILDLY different to the Technical Releases that describe them in practice (which I do have most of and which each THEN have a publication AND a reference date) some of the date mysteries should start to be solved and K9817 can be built much closer to how she would have been in Sept/Oct 1940.
fubar57
General
Good stuff Darryl 
- Thread starter
- #58
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Cheers Mate! On to the next
