End of WW2 -- second part

plan_D · Jul 1, 2005

The USAAF would be able to arrive in Britain in a larger force than in reality due to no diversion large diversion to North Africa. The arrival of P-38s would certainly decrease the chances drastically of any future success in the air against British Isles for the Luftwaffe.

I did state that the Luftwaffe would have more aircraft to fly but I also stated by the time the priority swung to Europe the key to Germany's war machine would have been recognised. In the real world it was recognised by the US in late 1944 and increasing numbers of sorties were flown against oil production plants by the 8th and 15th Air forces. I did give it about the same time frame as my alternate history.
With that comes a lack of fuel which, although the Luftwaffe would have more airframes, would hamper the sortie numbers drastically.

Actions in the CBI didn't require a massive and modern war machine, only men with rifles. The jungles of Burma hampered any kind of modern warfare, the British soldiers that fought there were not equipped with the latest of equipment and nor would the U.S troops.
There were plans in 1942 for British assaults on Burma, from India, by sea. These were cancelled due to two things; lack of men and lack of landing craft. Both of which were in Europe, invading Sicily.

There's few things I can think of that could stop the German blitzkrieg into France, without going before the war and altering French planning and development.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 2, 2005

Well I think it was a great "What if". I do however think that this would have been the last way things would have happened.

plan_D · Jul 3, 2005

In reality Allied forces didn't move back over the India-Burma frontier until 28th February, 1943.

Planning for the re-conquest of Burma had begun almost as soon as the British had been expelled from the nation. During July, 1942, the British Chiefs of Staff had been considering a plan to recapture Burma. This would include the capture of Rangoon, code-named Anakim.

It included amphibious assaults on Rangoon and Moulmein along with land assaults against the Japanese on the Assam front, code-named Ravenous, and seizure of Akyab which was code-named Cannibal.

Cannibal required five infantry divisions with two in reserve. While the forces required for Ravenous were already present, the IV Corps. They set the possible start date as November that same year.

Even with low priority the air forces in India had built up from five squadrons to twenty-six squadrons, reaching forty-two by February, 1943.
What cancelled this operation were; 29th Brigade in Madagascar had no way of getting to India due to lack of transport and it was needed for the operation. Also there was the lack of landing craft which had been sent to land forces on the Morrocan coast for Operation Torch on 8th November.

By the end of 1942, one hundred and fifteen airfields had been built in India. All capable of taking many aircraft, this base could provide massive air support to any Burma operation. That is, if the aircraft were there.

I have a lot of information on the ground and air forces available to the Allied armies in the CBI. It's obvious that with a little more priority the Japanese could have been kicked out of Burma with relative ease.

That said though, the priority was Europe and that's the way it would stay. I do like to think of an alternate history though, from time to time.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 4, 2005

It would make a decent alternate history story.

MP-Willow · Jul 5, 2005

Yes, but if you beat Germany back to a point that says you can go to the CBI then how do you keep him from riseing up when you leave or the Russians from walking in?

Plan_D, another question on CBI airpower how do you keep the troops supplied? Airdrops or the Burma road?

plan_D · Jul 5, 2005

All Germany wouldn't be beaten back to is Continental Europe. The only place Germany could try and advance is North Africa. British 8th Army would be positioned there as garrison duty, which would be much larger numbers than the garrison in Egypt when Italy invaded.
The Luftwaffe wouldn't have a chance against the British Isles once the USAAF had arrived. The British Empire and United States could keep on top of Germany's economy with relative ease.

The air forces in India would be supplied via ports in the Bay of Bengal. There's no need for the Burma Road or 'The Hump' - that supply route was to send lend-lease to China from India.

DaveB.inVa · Jul 5, 2005

plan_D said:
On August, 6th, 1945 Enola Gay drops the worlds first atom bomb in anger. This is followed a few days later by Nagasaki being demolished. Japan realises it cannot win and negociations begin of their surrender.

Consider this: Paul Tibbets as commander of the 509th Composite Group has stated many times in his book and publicly that the 509th was to simultaneously A-bomb Germany and Japan. Their original orders were for drops to occur on the same day. The only reason Germany didn't get it was obviously because they surrendered before the bombs were ready. Had they been in the war at the time Germany would have most certainly been A-bombed as well.

plan_D · Jul 5, 2005

Interesting, I did not know that. Although, I think you have to take into account the situation at the time. That does change my alternate history though, the question is would Germany surrender? Unlike Japan they did hold Continental Europe and I doubt the Allies would start A-bombing everything in Europe.

Personally, I believe they would surrender but it's open for question.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 6, 2005

I personally dont think Hitler would surrender in a situation like that. In your situation all they did was beat him back. In 1945 the Russians had him beaten back and so did the Allies from the West, did he give up? No. In your situation you have him beaten back and no where to go but he will not give up.

Now here is my question why go through all that effort and beat him back and then leave and go someplace else like the Pacific when in reality the Japs did not pose much of a threat to England. That to me is something that never would happen.

plan_D · Jul 6, 2005

Germany wouldn't prove a real threat to England when the USAAF arrived to reinforce the RAF on the British Isles. What could the Luftwaffe deploy that was capable to out-number or out-class the USAAF and RAF combined while conducting an effective strategic bomber campaign?

The Japanese would be easier to knock out of the war than Germany. We would already be on Japanese held terrority - which avoids the need for massive seaborne invasions. Once Japan had been pushed back to Japan - more forces would be available for an assault on Germany.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 6, 2005

The only thing I dont get is why jump back and forth between Japan and Germany. I just dont see the logic.

plan_D · Jul 6, 2005

Without Russia, the Allied armies wouldn't have been able to take the fight to Germany on Europe without removing Japan. If you remove Japan from the scene - not needing to completely destroy them, just push back to Japan - then you free up enough British Commonwealth forces to take on Germany.

Once Japan would have been pushed back a mere Naval blockade would be able to hold them down.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 7, 2005

I am sorry I disagree with you on this. Japan was never even from the beginning with Russia going to be the priority for the British. Even without Russia Germany would have been the priority. They made the biggest threat to Britain and her allies.

wmaxt · Jul 7, 2005

The thing about Japan is that they were over extended already. By stopping them at Midway, assuring the sea lanes would remain open to Austraila any continued threat from Japan was largely eliminated. The Pacific then could be reclaimed piece by piece with relativly small forces.

What would have happened if
1. Japan had waited 1 year, delaying the US entry to the war.
2. Instead of attacking Brittan, Germany had let the British retreat at Dunkirk.
3. Attacking the Russians in the Spring, allowing the Germans to capture Moscow, Kiev, etc. before the winter snows stopped them.

wmaxt

plan_D · Jul 7, 2005

How would they hope to deal with Germany though - Adler? Japan was also a great threat to the British Empire - and China was a cornerstone in U.S war policy.

Are all those combined, wmaxt?

The U.S didn't enter the war as early - the supplies would have still been going to Britain. Britain would be able to build up forces - importantly air forces - while Germany was attacking Russia. This would negate any chance of Germany ever conquering the British homeland.

If Britain secured the Atlantic - Germany would have no chance at defeating Britain. The longer Germany left Britain, the harder a nut it was to crack.

wmaxt · Jul 8, 2005

plan_D said:
How would they hope to deal with Germany though - Adler? Japan was also a great threat to the British Empire - and China was a cornerstone in U.S war policy.

Are all those combined, wmaxt?

The U.S didn't enter the war as early - the supplies would have still been going to Britain. Britain would be able to build up forces - importantly air forces - while Germany was attacking Russia. This would negate any chance of Germany ever conquering the British homeland.

If Britain secured the Atlantic - Germany would have no chance at defeating Britain. The longer Germany left Britain, the harder a nut it was to crack.

Yes they were combined but my thought was that any of the three could have made a drastic change in the war as it unfolded.

Had Germany left England alone, they might have conquered Russa and we might still have them today in a much different world. With the resources and distance not to mention the added manpower I'm not sure they could have been beaten. Britain would have been a tough nut to crack maybe to hard maybe not, it's even possible Hitler would be satisfied at least for a time with Russia, the mid east, the balkans and north Africa. He certainly could match anyone left who would challenge him.

You thoughts?

wmaxt

plan_D · Jul 8, 2005

The conquest of such large lands leaves open such large lands for partisan activity though - the chance of an uprising across the entirety of Europe wouldn't be out of the question. Hitler would need to act quick after conquering Russia to make sure he secured North Africa as well - he'd have to deal with the Royal Navy too.

the lancaster kicks ass · Jul 9, 2005

something which, at the time, he was in no real position to do.......

wmaxt · Jul 9, 2005

the lancaster kicks ass said:
something which, at the time, he was in no real position to do.......

I agree with both you and Plan_D to a point however had Hitler limited/eliminated the threat to Britain and had only 1 front? He almost won as it was, if only he had hit Russia early enough not to have to compete with the Russian winter. Couple that with reduced aid from the US and a lot of things change.

Resistance in Europe is a consideration but not a major one, given a couple of years of reasonable treatment it dies out. If Britain's perception of the threat was reduced the support for the resistance would have reduced as well. As for Russion resistance, they like China are used to new rulers and as long as their every day lives are not greatly affected don't really care who calls himself the King.

As for Africa even to lose it initialy would not have been a shattering blow. If Italy hadn't started in Africa the Germans wouldn't have either, the strategic value of North Africa is very small.

wmaxt

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 10, 2005

wmaxt said:
The thing about Japan is that they were over extended already. By stopping them at Midway, assuring the sea lanes would remain open to Austraila any continued threat from Japan was largely eliminated. The Pacific then could be reclaimed piece by piece with relativly small forces.

What would have happened if
1. Japan had waited 1 year, delaying the US entry to the war.
2. Instead of attacking Brittan, Germany had let the British retreat at Dunkirk.
3. Attacking the Russians in the Spring, allowing the Germans to capture Moscow, Kiev, etc. before the winter snows stopped them.

wmaxt

Very good point. And I love the What ifs there! I am going to have to think this one over and see what I can come up with.

End of WW2 -- second part

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