Engine choices for P-51 mustang ?

[Shortround6]

Me: I need a 2000HP engine.

P&W: Oh no, we are not willing and/or able to copy the Napier Sabre, and solve all the problems with sleeve valves. Woe is us!

And It you insisted on a sleeve valve liquid cooled engine instead of a radial P & W would have whipped out the Blue prints for their OWN H-24 sleeve valve X-1800

Pratt & Whitney X-1800 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And it's big brother and said

"No need for one of them foreign engines, we got what you need right right here, just give us enough money (and time and priority clearances) and you can have your hearts desire"

 

[PAT303]

Its funny you say that its been done people have shoehorned a v8 in a golf. So the sabare thing is possible

Okay mate, can you provide us with an example of a Golf that has a V8 engine in it that is not only road legal but improved the vehicle above and beyond what the original engine did, I'll wait.

 

[PAT303]

The Lego Mustang would be even more painful when you accidentally step on it in the dark.

Haha damn you, coffee all over the keyboard haha

 

[GrauGeist]

Not quite correct, just that the calculations for an aeroplane have more serious outcomes than for a car (normally). If you could just slot a V8 into a VW Golf you would have a car that maybe went faster for a short time in a straight line only. The drive train would break, the suspension would bottom out, the weight would be all wrong so it would always want to go straight on in a corner, it would have too little breaking and too much body roll. MAYBE faster in a straight line but certainly slower and less reliable than a Golf GTi. This is why the Golf in S/Rs post had the mods it did, it isnt a "Golf" in any way it just looks like one.

Back in the 70s I had a friend who bought a Honda 750. Instead of trading it in for a newer type he decided to go "the whole hog". He got a Rickman chassis to improve the handling, a big bore kit, special carbs, valves, valve springs, cams and a gas flowed head, it cost him a fortune, but by the time he got it all sorted you could buy a better performing bike (apart from the Rickman chassis) in a showroom. Undeterred he went back to basics, bought a turbo, which meant ditching all the other mods, and getting forged pistons, standard head, cams and valves etc. However by the time he got this all sorted you could buy a Turbo Kawasaki that out performed his in every way, including the Rickman chassis, apart from on a race track. The moral of this story, if you want 2,200 BHP from an engine in 1944 use a Merlin, dont wait for Napier with their Sabre.

Some time ago, friend of mine did stuff an engine from a Hyabusa (GSX 1300R) in a SMART car.

It was absolutely wicked fast.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Its funny you say that its been done people have shoehorned a v8 in a golf. So the sabare thing is possible

The power required to overcome drag from frontal area, turbulence from protrusions and weight drag (needing a higher angle of incidence in flight) plus skin friction goes up with the cubic power of speed. Going faster is a tricky business

 

[drgondog]

The power required to overcome drag from frontal area, turbulence from protrusions and weight drag (needing a higher angle of incidence in flight) plus skin friction goes up with the cubic power of speed. Going faster is a tricky business

Once again - in total agreement. Logic is elusive with the Sabre enthusiast.

As a matter of practicality, the Sabre was a 'no starter' based on a.) redesign of wing location, b.) re-location (and sizing) of empennage location and areas, c.) evaluating new Stress allowables - leading to re-design of key structures in wing, fuslage and empennage and probably landing gear strut/attach, d.) re-evaluating, testing and finalizing stability derivatives, e.) flight testing, f.) suitability testing, g.) re-tooling and fabrication of new parts not compatible with earlier Mustangs.

Did I mention cooling system requirements and re-design?

Significantly more work than Allison to R-R as the weight and cg changes and forward fuselage cowling and cooling system mods to initiate flight test was ready in five months - with few uncertainties regarding engine design and future airframe performance.

Remind me again why this thread is not reminding us of the great P-39 debate?

 

[Snautzer01]

Okay mate, can you provide us with an example of a Golf that has a V8 engine in it that is not only road legal but improved the vehicle above and beyond what the original engine did, I'll wait.

 

[SaparotRob]

Sure don't sound like a V-8.

 

[swampyankee]

That doesn't look like your ordinary street...
Also, if a kid needs to cover their ears, it's too loud for a normal street.

 

[Snautzer01]

That doesn't look like your ordinary street...
Also, if a kid needs to cover their ears, it's too loud for a normal street.

Yet is road legal.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Drag racing is immensely pleasing to engine builders, beause it involves going faster starting from an absolute speed of zero. See my previous post.

If somoene starts a drag racing series where the clock only STARTS once you pass the 400mph boundary, aerodynamics people will start to get phone calls... (we already did this experiment, and it has been agreed that we will call it "war".)

 

[wuzak]

Significantly more work than Allison to R-R as the weight and cg changes and forward fuselage cowling and cooling system mods to initiate flight test was ready in five months - with few uncertainties regarding engine design and future airframe performance.

Also more work that installing the Griffon, or about the same?

I would imagine even more, because the Sabre is 10 inches wider and 500lb heavier.

 

[GrauGeist]

Drag racing is immensely pleasing to engine builders, beause it involves going faster starting from an absolute speed of zero. See my previous post.

If somoene starts a drag racing series where the clock only STARTS once you pass the 400mph boundary, aerodynamics people will start to get phone calls... (we already did this experiment, and it has been agreed that we will call it "war".)

This actually happened with the Top Fuel dragster when they were approaching the 300 mph barrier.
They had to completely rethink the design of the body (aerodynamics, weight distribution, use of alloys and composites for frame and body, etc.) and it no longer was simply dropping a monster engine in a chassis and go like hell.

 

[Shortround6]

Brute force and ignorance eventually reaches it's limits.

 

[Howard Gibson]

And It you insisted on a sleeve valve liquid cooled engine instead of a radial P & W would have whipped out the Blue prints for their OWN H-24 sleeve valve X-1800

Pratt & Whitney X-1800 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And it's big brother and said

"No need for one of them foreign engines, we got what you need right right here, just give us enough money (and time and priority clearances) and you can have your hearts desire"

Also more work that installing the Griffon, or about the same?

I would imagine even more, because the Sabre is 10 inches wider and 500lb heavier.

As I noted earlier, aircraft with reliable Napier Sabre engines and laminar flow wings got built. Hawker Tempests. Some versions even had fancy, cleverly designed radiators! The Tempests with the old, Typhoon style radiators were first delivered to squadrons in October_1944, around a year after the Merlin Mustangs became available.

British thinking was that Merlin and Griffon engines worked about 20,000ft, and Sabres worked below that altitude. At most altitudes below 20,000ft, a Tempest could out-run a Mustang. Above 20,000ft where you escorted American bombers, the Tempest was not of much use.

 

[Just Schmidt]

Brute force and ignorance eventually reaches it's limits.

But surprizingly often not before page 100 is passed...

 

[EwenS]

The Tempests with the old, Typhoon style radiators were first delivered to squadrons in October_1944, around a year after the Merlin Mustangs became available.

The first Tempest V (with Typhoon style radiators) reached the first operational squadron in March 1944. By October there were 6 operational squadrons, with 5 just having moved to the Continent to join 2nd TAF.

 

[Howard Gibson]

The first Tempest V (with Typhoon style radiators) reached the first operational squadron in March 1944. By October there were 6 operational squadrons, with 5 just having moved to the Continent to join 2nd TAF.

Oops. I should have caught that one. Post-D-Day should have been a red flag. This is still well after Merlin Mustangs were available.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

The Sabres impact on the air war was minimal. The Typhoon and Tempest each shot down about 250 aircraft which in the overall scheme of things isn't much. The monthly totals for the Tempest are:
June 44 3
July 44 V-1 duty
August 44 V-1 duty
September 44 6
October 44 4
November 44 6
December 44 39
January 45 47
February 45 30
March 45 35
April 45 66
May 45 28
From this Website: Victories
It isn't until December 44 that the Tempest starts to have any effect.
As for the V-1 it may surprise some that the Merlin shot down more V-1s than the Saber. The combined totals of the Mosquito and Mustang alone exceed the Tempests score. In addition, Spitfire IX s also shot down some V-1s although I can't find the numbers for that.

 

[EwenS]

The Sabres impact on the air war was minimal. The Typhoon and Tempest each shot down about 250 aircraft which in the overall scheme of things isn't much. The monthly totals for the Tempest are:
June 44 3
July 44 V-1 duty
August 44 V-1 duty
September 44 6
October 44 4
November 44 6
December 44 39
January 45 47
February 45 30
March 45 35
April 45 66
May 45 28
From this Website: Victories
It isn't until December 44 that the Tempest starts to have any effect.
As for the V-1 it may surprise some that the Merlin shot down more V-1s than the Saber. The combined totals of the Mosquito and Mustang alone exceed the Tempests score. In addition, Spitfire IX s also shot down some V-1s although I can't find the numbers for that.

Not really surprising about the V1. Typhoons were on ground attack with 2nd TAF. Squadrons converted to the Tempest V as follows:-

3 - March 1944
486 - April 1944
56 - June 1944
501 - July 1944
80 - Aug 1944
274 - Aug 1944

All bar 501 moved to the Continent at the end of Sept 1944