Equally influence of air superiority on western front and eastern front ?

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

Almost all of those attacks on Berlin were in the early months. Losses were not the reason why they were abandoned but a total lack of success.

Post-war interviews with German officers reveal that the Russians rarely ventured deep over the German frontline. The Russians also lacked the recon or tactics for strategic bombing.

Lack of success, as well as a complete reorganisation of Soviet long-range bombardment assets.

Between 1942 and 1944, long-range aviation was almost completely subordinated to tactical operations. Medium and heavy bombers were primarily used as flying artillery rather than strategic weapons. Even longer-range missions were primarily directed against targets of tactical importance.

To quote from a USAF historical paper on German views of the Soviet air war:

"Long-range aircraft were employed, by preference, at points of main effort until the end of 1943. These aircraft, operating in conjunction with mobile, forces and spearhead armies, were supposed to prevent the moving up of German Army reserves, and to disrupt the German supply services, important rear installations, such as communications centers and airforce ground services were preferred targets."

Strategic bombing raids on the German zone of interior were limited in 1943 to isolated raids on East Prussian targets…

In 1942-43, Russian bombing operations in rear areas were mainly directed against tactical objectives. Attacks on strategic objectives were… rare exceptions"

From 1944 the story changes a little. As the USAF study notes, the performance of the Soviet bomber arm "changed profoundly". Russian bombers began to attack German rear area and naval targets in increasing strength and with increasing discipline and success.

While frontline/ rear area targets were the norm, Soviet bombers began to operate more "quasi strategic" operations, particularly at night from spring 1944 onwards. Attacks against towns/cities such as Sevastopol, lvov, Riga, Dvina, Libau, Koenigsberg, Budapest, and Danzig were conducted. There were more than 3,000 night sorties conducted at night against long-range targets in Finland.

Night bombing moved from single harassing aircraft to Western style bomber stream operations.

Again, to quote from the USAF study:

"Soviet bombers rarely flew quasi-strategic daylight missions. At night, however, they carried out such missions with increasing frequency and power, but without achieving any appreciable measure of success. Such attacks were conducted primarily against large towns considered important because of the size of their population or because of their functions as administrative centers."

While Soviet operations never matched the scale or success of Western strategic operations, they did happen.
 
Hello

Originally Posted by Civettone

Oh, and the Stuka nor the Hs 129 were all that effective in destroying Russian tanks. The numbers claimed were around 4 or 5 times higher than the actual numbers destroyed.

Kris

Why 4 or 5? Have you got any sources or examples?

Regards[/QUOTE]

A did not asked for polemic or provocation. J'm just looking for german claims /soviet tank losses valuable data.

From postwar established statistics*, only 2.4% of tank losses were due to Luftwaffe action. The lion's part > 80 % was due to antitank artillery. Then to other tanks, mines, panerfausts, field artillery etc.

It makes rather 40 or 50 times higher claim than the actual numbers destroyed, roughly not 4 to 5.

Regards


* Perov Rastrennin
 
There is a nice article by the Dupuy institute which seems to indicate a 4x or 5x overestimation.
I think that one was discussed here before (or maybe somewhere else but anyay :D) it's a good concrete example but only one example. And, the factor that doesn't enter in that case is where different air units attacked the same dead tanks and claimed then a bunch of times. The USAF spent a good deal of effort studying the results of air attacks on North Korean tanks in the Korean War. This was also a pretty easy example since the NK Army lost or abandoned practically all their tanks after their defeat in the intial phase of the war (ie. from the beginning in June 1950 to their collapse after the Inchon invasion in Sept-Oct of that year, before the Chinese entered the war in late Oct). The bulk of the NK tank force was lying around in UN held areas for survey teams to analyze. The ratio in that case, recorded claims in air unit reports v tank wrecks classed as destroyed by air, was >10:1, and the claim number quoted might not even be complete. Also, many tanks had been hit with multiple weapons and survey teams had to do some guess work to say which hit first, and which might have been KO's of already dead tanks, or ad hoc testing of AT weapons etc (eg. 3.5" bazooka shots against known dead T-34's for target practice and to gain confidence in that new weapon's destructive effect). It's easy to believe that many napalm attacks on tanks (by far the most common tank killer among a/c weapons in that war) were accurate drops which enveloped the tank, but an already dead tank.

This wouldn't be exactly the same in case of large caliber aerial gun attacks on tanks as by Germans and Russians against each other's tanks but could still obviously happen and so even if 4-5:1 was typical for any given unit (and the case you refer to is just an example, not necessarily the average), the overall ratio would probably be higher as at least some dead tanks were attacked (and hit) multiple times by multiple units. This is one key difference between between air-air and air-tank or air-grounded a/c over claiming. A flying airplane will never be mistaken for an already shot down one or a decoy, but that's quite likely when a/c attack tanks or other a/c on the ground.

Joe
 
I have also seen a couple of other accounts which also seem to indicate an exaggeration of 4 or 5. So yes, maybe several of these were on already immobilized tanks. But in any case, it seems clear that the average overestimation is at least 3 or 4 ...
And that in itself is already enough to limit the legend of Rudel.

When it comes to the general effectiveness of AT aircraft it seems important to think of how they were used. Often these aircraft would go on patrol over enemy territory and attacking random tanks. Though the ground fire was often low the general effectiveness was low as these tanks could be taken back into service.
If the aircraft were used to counterattack enemy armoured offensives they would be more decisive but losses might also be higher.
I recall operations in 1945 where Panzerblitz armed Fw 190s were countered by extra flak in Russian armoured columns...

Kris
 
Hello Kris

ENJOY!! Tank Busting Aircraft at Kursk - The Dupuy Institute Forum[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: Nothing enjoyable in that old outdated threads. Just time loss. Except maybe the 26th Tank Brigade losses for all kind of reasons on july, the 8th ; and HS -129 claims. It makes approx 40 / 50 to 10.

So weren't there other Luft attacks, Heer claims, soviet friendly fire, mines, technical losses?

What are the losses reasons descriptions from soviet documents?

Were they definite or temporary losses?

How many tanks were recovered on the same day, next one, next week? Don't forget that return rate is extremly high from soviet accounts and more than 75-80% of the" lost" tanks are back in the units during main" strategical operations" within 3-4 weeks in 44-45 years.

Moreover, it's undifficult from available information to verify that 26th TB of the 2nd tank corps engaged the ennemy from july the 8th, and even at night to the 8th from the7th for some advanced AFV's.
http://chekhov-vestnik.narod.ru/Index.files/2009/page06005.html

Nothing concrete or valuable in your link, only some ignorant speculations....

I can't still see how your 4 or 5 value is obtained, from your example.

Sorry...
 
Last edited:
feel free to come up with better research :)


Kris

Unfortunatly it's difficult to find "ponctual" examples.
Even at Koorsk battle where high tank and plane concentration was used, the main reason for soviet tank losses were german antitank canons, that destroyed more than 75% of soviet tanks and AFV.
The others 25% are to be shared by infantery, panzers, aviation, field artillery, mines...

So the losses due to Luftwaffe action are so small that they are in the discrepancy gap, and vey difficult to estimate with accuracy, but far less than 5% to give and order of idea. Even if on some particular days it was very successfull with 9.1% and 6.3% on southern and northern faces.

I know that an a single mission 29 tanks and 12 trucks were claimed on July, the sixth. With not a single confirmation by the other side. 1st fligerdivision claimed 74 tanks destroyed on july the 11th.

The 2nd tank army that was permanently attacked lost 214 tanks from the 5, to the 14th july, from them 138 definitly (from WD). From later complited documents only 9 due to aviation. No mention if it was definite losses or not on this secund document, and moreover about days and places.
Luftwaffe crews claimed probably dozens (50 -100) tanks per day. I don't have precise numbers.

Anyway, even if we apply the 2.4% factor to 93 500 soviet tanks and AFV's lost for all kind of reasons during WW2 (this is of course untrue, but i don't have exact wear and tear part), and Rudel's claims, should we consider that he had destroyed 1/4 (522/2100) of the soviet tank losses for Luftwaffe and friendly VVS actions alone? What the hell did the others pilots?

It gives you a good order of the luftwaffe overclaim.
In other hand, you had more than 400 000 soviet tanks written as "lost" but later recovered by maintenance teams.
Maybe some of the Rudel's victories are inside...But we should call "cat" a cat, and "damaged" tank, a tank that was definitly and not temporary written off.

Regards
 
Last edited:
Yeah your guess is as good as mine. I think the article was good enough for what I wanted to get out of it, and that is that it shows that there was some serious overclaiming done. And if it is 3x or 10x it doesn't matter all that much to me, at least not at first glance.

And then comes the thought about tanks being recoverable which makes the claims even less worth anything.

Kris
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back