SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Inspired by another thread. Russian equipment is now questionable. Would a foreign buyer be better off with the Admiral of Russian Navy Kusnetsov class or a modernized Essex class?
Essex v. Kusnetsov - Is a reactivated Essex class carrier a better buy than a new Kusnetsov?
- Thread starter SaparotRob
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Admiral Beez
Captain
The Indians and Chinese have shown that with a complete tear down and rebuild Russian carriers can be made into something useful. Kusnetsov's sistership Liaoning seems credible in PLAAN service.
Thumpalumpacus
Captain
If I could replace the machinery, I'd go with Kuznetsov.
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- #4
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Okay but the new machinery is Russian.
Admiral Beez
Captain
- Thread starter
- #6
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Nope. An Essex (angled deck, new cats, last SLEP, hurricane bow, etc) v. a new Russian Kusnetsov. Not built in Ukraine.
I'm asking for a friend.
I'm asking for a friend.
Admiral Beez
Captain
I'll take a warmed over HTMS Chakri Naruebet before a Kusnetsov, but the latter can be made serviceable with unlimited funds and attention.... as can anything.
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- #8
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I saw her up close. They wouldn't let foreigners on board. So I went aboard one of their frigates. A Knox class I think.
While I agree with your sentiment, K or E?
While I agree with your sentiment, K or E?
Thumpalumpacus
Captain
In that case, and with your stipulation that the new machinery be Russian, I'm going with an Essex. Even if you throw in the tug for the Russian ship.
Admiral Beez
Captain
Given how the entire Type 45 class had to have their machinery replaced within a year or so of active service, it's not just Russian machinery to watch out for.
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- #11
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Funny plus agree equals winner.
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- #12
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
This how I get a dig at Russia without quite descending to troll.
Thumpalumpacus
Captain
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- #14
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
You know the math.
Hi,
Your post got me thinking. Since you don't appear to mention a timeframe, its probably important to note other than the four ship's now serving as museum ships, I believe that most of the Essex's were scrapped by the mid-1990s, with the exception of the ex-Oriskany, was scuttled in 2006.
As such, if you are talking about present day, the option would be between the Kuznetsov and one of the four museum ships or the ex-Oriskany. Below is a summary of those ships, taken from Wikipedia;
Name ex-Yorktown ex-Intrepid ex-Hornet ex-Lexington ex-Oriskany
Laid Down 1941 1941 1942 1941 1944
Commissioned 1943 1943 1943 1942 1945
Decommissioned 1970 1974 1970 1991 1976
Made into Museum 1975 1982 1998 1992
Scuttled 2006
If you are talking about present day then, for all its faults I would suspect that having at least been in some form of service recently the Kuznetsov would be a better option than trying to refurbish a long laid up, older ship.
If however, you are looking back to about 1998, when the Chinese bought the incomplete ex-Varyag, it appears that the the ex-Hornet (which appears to have been laid upsince 1970) or the ex-Oriskany (which appears to have been laid up since 1976) may be options.
Additionally, its not fully clear what type of airwing a refurbished ex-Essex would be able to accommodate, both in terms of the size of the catapults, strength of the arresting gear, size of the hangar and size/capacity of the lifts. As I understand it the J-15 aircraft currently operated by the Chinese from their carrier are considered very large, as shown in the comparison to the F-14 below.
J-15 F-14
Length 22.3m 19.1m
Width with Wing Folded/Retracted 7.4m 11.65m
Height 5.9m 4.9m
Empty Weight 17.5t 19.8t
Gross Wt 27t 27.7t
Max Take Off Wt 32.5t 33.7t
Since (I believe that) the ex-Essex class ships were not able to operate F-14 type aircraft when they were operational, it may well be that they would also struggle to operate the J-15 type aircraft without potentially significant modifications.
As such, since the ex-Varyag had been laid down in 1985 and launched in 1988, though never commissioned, I'd still suspect that procuring it would ultimately look to be the better path to follow, eventhough that ship would still require a lot of work to complete.
Your post got me thinking. Since you don't appear to mention a timeframe, its probably important to note other than the four ship's now serving as museum ships, I believe that most of the Essex's were scrapped by the mid-1990s, with the exception of the ex-Oriskany, was scuttled in 2006.
As such, if you are talking about present day, the option would be between the Kuznetsov and one of the four museum ships or the ex-Oriskany. Below is a summary of those ships, taken from Wikipedia;
Name ex-Yorktown ex-Intrepid ex-Hornet ex-Lexington ex-Oriskany
Laid Down 1941 1941 1942 1941 1944
Commissioned 1943 1943 1943 1942 1945
Decommissioned 1970 1974 1970 1991 1976
Made into Museum 1975 1982 1998 1992
Scuttled 2006
If you are talking about present day then, for all its faults I would suspect that having at least been in some form of service recently the Kuznetsov would be a better option than trying to refurbish a long laid up, older ship.
If however, you are looking back to about 1998, when the Chinese bought the incomplete ex-Varyag, it appears that the the ex-Hornet (which appears to have been laid upsince 1970) or the ex-Oriskany (which appears to have been laid up since 1976) may be options.
Additionally, its not fully clear what type of airwing a refurbished ex-Essex would be able to accommodate, both in terms of the size of the catapults, strength of the arresting gear, size of the hangar and size/capacity of the lifts. As I understand it the J-15 aircraft currently operated by the Chinese from their carrier are considered very large, as shown in the comparison to the F-14 below.
J-15 F-14
Length 22.3m 19.1m
Width with Wing Folded/Retracted 7.4m 11.65m
Height 5.9m 4.9m
Empty Weight 17.5t 19.8t
Gross Wt 27t 27.7t
Max Take Off Wt 32.5t 33.7t
Since (I believe that) the ex-Essex class ships were not able to operate F-14 type aircraft when they were operational, it may well be that they would also struggle to operate the J-15 type aircraft without potentially significant modifications.
As such, since the ex-Varyag had been laid down in 1985 and launched in 1988, though never commissioned, I'd still suspect that procuring it would ultimately look to be the better path to follow, eventhough that ship would still require a lot of work to complete.
Admiral Beez
Captain
Hi
A summary of the Type 45 problems from page 30 of 'British Warships & Auxiliaries 2022' below:
It appears that Northrop Grumman was a major contributor to the problem.
Mike
Admiral Beez
Captain
I wonder if these are the same jokers who designed the failing machinery on the USN's LCS.
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- #20
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
It served longer and more effectively than Kusnetsov.
