F6F Hellcat vs. P-47 Thunderbolt

[drgondog]

I feel the need for speed. I would take the P-47 for its speed if nothing else over the F6F.

especially for ETO escort

 

[syscom3]

especially for ETO escort

And for ground attack.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

With my preliminary data I would select the P-47D-25 over the F6F-5, both contemporaries. At SL, both aircraft have similar airspeed and climb. As altitude increases, the P-47 exhibits an increasing advantage in both air speed and climb, at 10k, P-47 airspeed is 395 mph to 375 mph for the F6F, climb for the P-47 is 3260 ft/min to the F6F's 2800 ft/min. The advantage increases as the altitude goes up. Add to that a better diving speed and faster roll rate, and the P-47 just has more tools to work with.

I always found it interesting that the P-47 was so much faster at 10K than the F6F. The P-47 has the weight of the turbosupercharging system but I guess its bigger 4 bladed prop made the difference.

 

[drgondog]

I always found it interesting that the P-47 was so much faster at 10K than the F6F. The P-47 has the weight of the turbosupercharging system but I guess its bigger 4 bladed prop made the difference.

It depends on which apple is being compared - but if P-47D-25 and beyond there was a lot more HP available at WEP in the 47 (2550 for -59) than the -10 in the F6F-5 (2000hp).

The F6F-6 is the only version other than the two experimental F6F-3's that had the two stage/two speed turbosupercharger and engine dash number to take advantage of it. It (F6F-6 never saw combat)

By the time the 47M was introduced with all the weight stripped out and wing span and area increased - the 47 outclimbed the F6F everywhere and far faster at all altitudes above 5K. It was by then a match for the P-51H in speed and climb.

 

[dragonandhistail]

Gentlemen,

This is a tough call as both were war winning aircraft! The P-47 does not get it due for its early escort work in Europe as it is a fact that most of the skilled German pilots were killed by P-47s(and P-38s) before the Mustang came on the scene as the lead escort and air superiority aircraft. The P-51s faced a less well trained German pilot many of which were easy kills. The Jug was the ultimate fighter bomber and could take hits that a Mustang would have crumbled under. If the P-47 M and N had been introduced in Europe in the same quantity as the Mustang the results would have been the same. As for the F6F it won the war in the Pacific after the line was held by the F4F and P40. It was the top scorer period and that speaks for itself. Comparing the P-47 and F6F is like comparing two different types of Apples. Both were sturdy, powerful, well armed, and could climb and dive very well. Both represented what was best in US WW2 aviation design. The P-47 was better at high altitude and the F6F at lower. I have to give the edge to the P-47 simply because it was an excellent fighter like the Hellcat but had the edge as a multirole fighter bomber. Neither of these aircraft get their true due as the P-51 and Corsair were sexier and were later developments. The P-47 and F6F won the war and set the stage for the others to be successful. The
P-47N was the ultimate US Fighter of WW2 if both air superiority and ground attack roles are considered.

 

[renrich]

The F6F had 5257 kills allegedly in the PTO. The P47, 697. The F6F had 8 kills in the ETO. The P47, 2686. Altogether, the P51 had 5944, F6F had 5265 and P47 had 3662, all allegedly. The F6F was a nice safe airplane to fly and to operate off a carrier. It was also very rugged and was easy to maintain. It did not have the overall performance of the P47 but if used in the ETO, extensively, IMO it would have given a good account of itself. One advantage it would have had over the P47 would have been that it could have operated off of much shorter airfields and early in the war would have had better range. The P47 initially was very short legged. The F4U was developed and went into action before either the F6F or P47. The P47N had the same climb rate as the early P47C, D which was lousy.

 

[drgondog]

Gentlemen,

This is a tough call as both were war winning aircraft! The P-47 does not get it due for its early escort work in Europe as it is a fact that most of the skilled German pilots were killed by P-47s(and P-38s) before the Mustang came on the scene as the lead escort and air superiority aircraft.

Easy to say - hard to prove.

Facts/sources on experten and skilled pilots KIA by P-47 and P-38 prior to say March 1944? then afterwards to make your point? March BTW was the last decent month by P-47 groups in comparison with the very few P-51 Groups.

Only the 56th FG significantly distinguished itself in the P-47. Nobody else did particularly well with it. The P-38 record was far worse. The 354th/357th/355th/352nd/4th - all scored much more in the 51 and particularly in the Feb-May timeframe when the LW was seriously defeated in central and east germany.


The P-51s faced a less well trained German pilot many of which were easy kills.

Back to the 'proof thing - particularly when the LW was making massive transfers from Eastern Front in Winter/Spring 1944 to try to shore up luftflotte Reich. Your assumption is unfounded, primarily because only JG26 and JG2 was opposing the 8th AF in P-47 range (and Spit). You want to postulate that a.) the P-47s wiped out both of these great units and further wiped out all the experienced pilots coming in as replacements?

You are correct for the entire LW facing all Allied aircraft as the war progressed - but only the 51 was killing them in Central and Eastern Germany/Poland/CZ and Austria. That is where the big battles were.

The 38 was effective in the MTO but only marginal in ETO.

The Jug was the ultimate fighter bomber and could take hits that a Mustang would have crumbled under.

But somehow its effectiveness as an airfield strafer where the 20/40mm coverage peaked was less than the Mustang in context of number of German a/c destroyed on the ground versus the number lost while strafing. Why is that? Ditto P-38 with two engines.

If the P-47 M and N had been introduced in Europe in the same quantity as the Mustang the results would have been the same.

The only problem with that thesis is the war in Europe was over when they were coming out in numbers.

As for the F6F it won the war in the Pacific after the line was held by the F4F and P40. It was the top scorer period and that speaks for itself. Comparing the P-47 and F6F is like comparing two different types of Apples. Both were sturdy, powerful, well armed, and could climb and dive very well. Both represented what was best in US WW2 aviation design. The P-47 was better at high altitude and the F6F at lower. I have to give the edge to the P-47 simply because it was an excellent fighter like the Hellcat but had the edge as a multirole fighter bomber. Neither of these aircraft get their true due as the P-51 and Corsair were sexier and were later developments. The P-47 and F6F won the war and set the stage for the others to be successful. The
P-47N was the ultimate US Fighter of WW2 if both air superiority and ground attack roles are considered.

Back to the nagging proof thing- the F4U-4 and the 51H were great aircraft. Maybe a moderate percentage of increased losses would have occurred on ground support but the 354th FG jumped at the chance to get rid of the Jug and get back into Mustangs.

 

[dragonandhistail]

Back to the nagging proof thing- the F4U-4 and the 51H were great aircraft. Maybe a moderate percentage of increased losses would have occurred on ground support but the 354th FG jumped at the chance to get rid of the Jug and get back into Mustangs.

DRGONDOG, Thanks for the info. I am at work enroute home soon. I'll try to back up what I am saying with fact. Thanks for keeping us sharp!

 

[MikeGazdik]

I answered this based off the question; P-47 vs F6F. And my answer was F6f. I take the question as meaning you vs the other guy. IF I had to choose one and then dogfight the other, I would take the F6F. I think my chances would be slightly better.

If I was supposed to answer as to which was the best aircraft based upon history and what it accomplished, then once again another tough argument, and I am not sure which to pick.

I personally like the P-47 better. But I wouldn't want to dogfight a Hellcat if I didn't have to while flying the Jug.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

They are both cool planes. One was in the Navy, one was in the army, a lot of argument right there!

The P-47 was a good plane, because it was so massive and able to take a lot of hits, but then again so could the Hellcat. The Hellcat was a better dogfighter, so perhaps if you were fighting Dora's or 109's then that would be the better plane to pick.

On Carrier operations the P-47 would probably be too slow to take off and crash into the sea, so it's not a plus there.

It's a tough one. But I guess I'll stick with the P-47, by just a little bit. It could dive something terrible!

 

[drgondog]

I answered this based off the question; P-47 vs F6F. And my answer was F6f. I take the question as meaning you vs the other guy. IF I had to choose one and then dogfight the other, I would take the F6F. I think my chances would be slightly better.

If I was supposed to answer as to which was the best aircraft based upon history and what it accomplished, then once again another tough argument, and I am not sure which to pick.

I personally like the P-47 better. But I wouldn't want to dogfight a Hellcat if I didn't have to while flying the Jug.

Except in ground support role - If I see the other guy first I would prefer the 47 in comparable year versions, particularly mid 1944 forward. I know the F6F is superior in low altitude but not by much!

The 47 had so many options including dive/zoom for superior altitude, faster, rolled better, much better climb above 25K.. much faster abover 10K, heavier fire power. The Jug doesn't have to play 'turn' unless on the deck.

 

[TheMustangRider]

Both the P-38 and the P-47 were excellent fighters and were lethal countering Luftwaffe fighters when they fought under their terms but in the ETO where endurance was the name of the game the contributions of the P-51 are impossible to deny nor ignore, the Mustang didn't just offer the capability to protect bombers until their targets and back but also the capacity to hunt down German fighter in their own skies until the allies had the solid ground in Europe and long range was not longer a necesity. By the end of the war both the P-38 and the P-47 had matured greatly but earlier it was the Mustang which helped greatly in achiving air superiority for the allies.

 

[Clay_Allison]

Just realized that the P-47 was more than twice as expensive as the F6F; owning, no doubt, to the complex and expensive turbocharger (as opposed to the Supercharger on the F6F).

F6F: $35,000 in 1945
P-51: $50,985 in 1945
P-47: $85,000 in 1945
P-38: $97,147 in 1944

 

[davebender]

F6F. Empty weight = 9,238 lbs.
$35,000 in 1945
A reasonably effective fighter aircraft for an inexpensive price. The USN equivalent to the Me-109.

P-47. Empty weight = 10,000 lbs (for P-47D).
$85,000 in 1945
The aircraft use similiar quantities of aluminum and have similiar engines. Even the machineguns are similiar. Either the P-47 turbocharger is outrageously expensive or the P-47 airframe is very expensive to manufacture.

 

[Clay_Allison]

F6F. Empty weight = 9,238 lbs.
$35,000 in 1945
A reasonably effective fighter aircraft for an inexpensive price. The USN equivalent to the Me-109.

P-47. Empty weight = 10,000 lbs (for P-47D).
$85,000 in 1945
The aircraft use similiar quantities of aluminum and have similiar engines. Even the machineguns are similiar. Either the P-47 turbocharger is outrageously expensive or the P-47 airframe is very expensive to manufacture.

I have read previously that Turbochargers were outrageously expensive.

 

[Sweb]

"The Cat" was 1 ton lighter comparing all-up weight (15,400 vs 17,500) and had a larger wing. The difference in speed (380 vs 433) is obvious as the Jug was a cleaner machine.

 

[renrich]

Sweb, the Jug may have had slightly less drag than the Hellcat, but the main reason the Jug had a higher vmax than the Cat was that it's engine made more power high up where the air was thinner and an airplane could go faster because of less drag. The F6F5 was a legitimate 400 plus MPH AC at critical altitude. For a WW2 recip AC to go fast it had to get high.

 

[Milos Sijacki]

That the P-47 was overshadowed by P-51 is exactly the same with the Hawker Hurricane which had shot down more enemy aircraft than the Spitfire during the Battle of Britain campaign. Spitfire, P-51 as well, just grew to people's hearts.

When it comes to these two aircraft, Hellcat and Thunderbolt, I would go for F-6F Hellcat when we talk about a fighter, while P-47 found its true role as a far-ranging hard-hitting ground-attack aircraft.

Cheers

 

[drgondog]

"The Cat" was 1 ton lighter comparing all-up weight (15,400 vs 17,500) and had a larger wing. The difference in speed (380 vs 433) is obvious as the Jug was a cleaner machine.

Sweb - I don't have the facts at hand but if I was trying for a 'kentucky windage' comparison on drag I woul lay the charts of speed vs Hp at several altitudes to be able to draw some conclusions..

Is that what you did - or did you just compare Vmax with no reference to Hp-altitude for the Vmax comparison?

 

[drgondog]

That the P-47 was overshadowed by P-51 is exactly the same with the Hawker Hurricane which had shot down more enemy aircraft than the Spitfire during the Battle of Britain campaign. Spitfire, P-51 as well, just grew to people's hearts.

When it comes to these two aircraft, Hellcat and Thunderbolt, I would go for F-6F Hellcat when we talk about a fighter, while P-47 found its true role as a far-ranging hard-hitting ground-attack aircraft.

Cheers

Milos - for that analogy to work the P-47 would have had to shoot down more aircraft than the Mustang. That was not the case.

The P-47 and P-38 totals - air to air - Combined achieved the Mustang totals for the entire war despite much longer operational time in theatres.