USS Enterprise CV-6
Airman
I think I would choose the Hellcat. The F6F-5N (Night Fighter Version) had 2x20mm cannons and 4x.50 caliber machine guns
F6F Hellcat vs. P-47 Thunderbolt
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USS Enterprise CV-6
Airman
I would take the Hellcat for a dogfight for a Zero or any other Jap plane. I also think the Hellcat would be able to shoot down a FW190 or the BF109 easy. The Hellcat could take on several Zeros at one time, and could survive and shoot down the Japs. If a P-47 tried to get in a dogfight with 3 Zeros, it would be toast.
Most Japanese fighters displayed a highter turn rate than the Hellcat, and many of them had a better (some even much better) climb rate. Not even talking about the obvious fact that no pilot can see in all directions at once like a jedi, which means even with a pretty good plane a pilot trying to dogfight three enemy pilots by himself really starts to sound like a death wish at work.
So a Hellcat flown by John Wayne may have been able to do what you describe. But a reasonably-well trained pilot would rather use speed, energy and teamwork to achieve victory, even in a supposedly super awesome Hellcat.
GregP
Major
On the F2G they also had a rather novel approach to trim.
The rudder was split. Most was attached to the rudder pedals, but a small rudder surface near the bottom of the rudder area was attached to the throttle. The total rudder area was about the same, but something like 20 - 25% of it was attached to the throttle to add right rudder when the throttle was opened. I asked about that at the old Doug Champlin Fighter Museum in Arizona and again when Bob Odegaard visited the Planes of Fame.
He confirmed the small rudder surface was activated by the throttle position to compensate for the extra torque of the large engine.
In the pic below, you can see the auxiliary rudder at the bottom of the conventional rudder, just above the fuselage skin. Note it is deflected right on climbout.
The rudder was split. Most was attached to the rudder pedals, but a small rudder surface near the bottom of the rudder area was attached to the throttle. The total rudder area was about the same, but something like 20 - 25% of it was attached to the throttle to add right rudder when the throttle was opened. I asked about that at the old Doug Champlin Fighter Museum in Arizona and again when Bob Odegaard visited the Planes of Fame.
He confirmed the small rudder surface was activated by the throttle position to compensate for the extra torque of the large engine.
In the pic below, you can see the auxiliary rudder at the bottom of the conventional rudder, just above the fuselage skin. Note it is deflected right on climbout.
USS Enterprise CV-6
Airman
You make a good point, I was simply stating it might be able to. There is no way to see if it can or not, as world war 2 ended 69 years ago
USS Enterprise,
Tactics are tactics and in fighter aviation they just get continously refined. If a guy in a Hellcat (faster aircraft) takes on two Zero's (better turning and higher angle climb) and stays in the fight he will lose 9 times out of 10. Team work increases lethality exponentially. Imagine a big guy fighting two smaller guys. Unless he has a huge advantage or the two smaller guys tube their teamwork, they will win the vast majority of the time.
Cheers,
Biff
Tactics are tactics and in fighter aviation they just get continously refined. If a guy in a Hellcat (faster aircraft) takes on two Zero's (better turning and higher angle climb) and stays in the fight he will lose 9 times out of 10. Team work increases lethality exponentially. Imagine a big guy fighting two smaller guys. Unless he has a huge advantage or the two smaller guys tube their teamwork, they will win the vast majority of the time.
Cheers,
Biff
USS Enterprise CV-6
Airman
You make a good point. I am just saying a Hellcat might be able to, but might not
GregP
Major
Actually, he said it seemed to work fine and helped manage the torque. I assumed that meant the rudder pressures would have been fairly high without the trim surface, but did not pursue the subject past his comments.
If I get a chance to speak with some of the more well-known pilots, I might ask a question or two, but do not press them for attention. Generally they aren't there to talk with ME.
If I get a chance to speak with some of the more well-known pilots, I might ask a question or two, but do not press them for attention. Generally they aren't there to talk with ME.
USS Enterprise CV-6
Airman
Back to the original topic, I say head on, P-47. P-47 had more firepower, and both had similar armor. Of course, in a dogfight, Hellcat, because the P-47 was not exactly the best turner. If the pilot for the P-47 knew what his plane could, or more importantly, couldn't do, he wouldn't even get in a dogfight.
USS Enterprise CV-6
Airman
You make a good point. I've (and probalay you too) have heard this a million times: 'The reason the Hellcat had so many kills was because it was put in target rich enviroments with poorly trained pilots.' Which is completely true. Still, the Hellcat was a great plane and would (Warning: Following statement may cause some arguing) be a match for the Mustang if it was faster and more maneuverable.
The Mustang was a great aircraft and, given the choice between the Mustang and P-47, I would take the Mustang.
Also, I am not even sure, does anybody know the numbers of ground kills for the Hellcat?
Oh yeah?
We might want to add another important factors - most of the Hellcat's victims were lacking performance to compete, or ruggedness to withstand it's fire. In many cases (Marianas turkey shoot, for example), it was both of those factors in same time.
USS Enterprise CV-6
Airman
Um...yes I think that is true
USS Enterprise CV-6
Airman
Pretty much what I said, and some of the kills were kamikazies
Hellcat was still a great plane, and if they were put in against Pearl Harbor and Midway skill level pilots, instead of the F4F Wildcat, they probalay would fare the same, maybe less kills and more shot down, but not by much.
Nevertheless you make a good point
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USS Enterprise CV-6
Airman
I don't think until Korea. Not sure but pretty sure not in WW2
Shortround6
Major General
A statement that while true, doesn't actually prove much because to it follow to a totally illogical conclusion a P-30
would be a match for the Mustang if it was faster and more maneuverable.
The P-30 and Hellcat were NOT faster or more maneuverable and saying that one plane would be better than another IF it was improved by XXX amount proves nothing.
The Hellcat performed a sterling service in it's time but it could not be easily modified to keep up with increasing demands. The XF6-6 with the same engine as a F4U-4 seems to have been somewhat slower.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
If you don't know anything about a topic, maybe you should refrain from comment. Hint: Look up the F4U-1C.
Shortround6
Major General
the first of 200 cannon equipped F4U-1Cs started production in July of 1944.
Not sure when production F4U-4B Cs show up but they were on order by the end of 1944.
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