Magister
Airman 1st Class
Interesting chart that you prepared.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing.
F6F Hellcat vs. P-47 Thunderbolt
- Thread starter Clay_Allison
- Start date
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
Yes, that is interesting.
I wonder what the P47N data would look like.
I wonder what the P47N data would look like.
Hi Davparlr,
>I put together a couple of charts showing the performance of the F6F-5, P-47D-25, and F4U-1D.
Good stuff, thanks!
Two tips for using Excel for graphing performance charts:
- If you use the X/Y diagram style, it can be a bit easier to portray the graphs since you don't need one speed data point per altitude for each of the aircraft, and you are not forced to use fixed altitude steps (like every 5000 ft or so).
- With X/Y diagrams, it's also possible to swap the axes so that the vertical axis indicates altitude, as it is traditionally done with aircraft performance diagrams. This requires editing of the individual data sources though, and I couldn't to get the "wizard" to do it in one convenient step for an entire data range.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
>I put together a couple of charts showing the performance of the F6F-5, P-47D-25, and F4U-1D.
Good stuff, thanks!
Two tips for using Excel for graphing performance charts:
- If you use the X/Y diagram style, it can be a bit easier to portray the graphs since you don't need one speed data point per altitude for each of the aircraft, and you are not forced to use fixed altitude steps (like every 5000 ft or so).
- With X/Y diagrams, it's also possible to swap the axes so that the vertical axis indicates altitude, as it is traditionally done with aircraft performance diagrams. This requires editing of the individual data sources though, and I couldn't to get the "wizard" to do it in one convenient step for an entire data range.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
billswagger
Airman 1st Class
- 256
- Mar 12, 2009
IMO, the P-47N is a bit over rated. Certainly it was a better climber, but the D still maintained a better roll rate.
N saw more action in the pacific, right?? I know it was up for consideration for catching V-1s, but the P-47D was already capable of doing it, and there were already other allied aircraft in the air even better suited for the job.
Magister
Airman 1st Class
N saw more action in the pacific, right??
No.
I have never read anything indicating that the "N" was considered for ETO. There did not appear to be a need in the ETO for a plane with 2,300+ mile range. Do you mean the "M"? I do not believe the "M" was developed as a countermeasure against the German rockets. It was a very fast ship though.
I have heard of stories of M's tweaked in the field that could approach 500 mph in straight level flight.
No.
I have never read anything indicating that the "N" was considered for ETO. There did not appear to be a need in the ETO for a plane with 2,300+ mile range. Do you mean the "M"? I do not believe the "M" was developed as a countermeasure against the German rockets. It was a very fast ship though.
I have heard of stories of M's tweaked in the field that could approach 500 mph in straight level flight.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I added the P-47M and F4U-4 just for fun. The P-47N is similar to the M in airspeed but roughly about 300 ft/min less in climb.
The P-47M and F4U-4 are very similar in performance up to about 25k, where the P-47 begins to enter its design flight area.
Thanks for the comment. I have been trying to flip those axis for a while. Excel won't let me copy a column and paste to a row so everything has to be manually transferred. I don't seem to have a X/Y diagram.HoHun said:
billswagger
Airman 1st Class
- 256
- Mar 12, 2009
Those are great graphs.
Just a suggestion for the Airspeed vs Altitude, you may want to start the Airspeed axis at 200 or 250, if it will let you, because most of the data is bunched together and difficult to read. If you add more planes then it might be necessary.
It would great if there was the info on IAS vs Roll Rate
That would be a great graph to also see. There was one posted on a thread but i'm not sure of the methods or even how accurate it is.
Just a suggestion for the Airspeed vs Altitude, you may want to start the Airspeed axis at 200 or 250, if it will let you, because most of the data is bunched together and difficult to read. If you add more planes then it might be necessary.
It would great if there was the info on IAS vs Roll Rate
That would be a great graph to also see. There was one posted on a thread but i'm not sure of the methods or even how accurate it is.
Hi Davparlr,
>Thanks for the comment. I have been trying to flip those axis for a while. Excel won't let me copy a column and paste to a row so everything has to be manually transferred. I don't seem to have a X/Y diagram.
Hm, I'm only familiar with the German edition of Excel, so it's probably my fault for not providing the correct English name. Literal translation of the German menu entry would be "Point (X, Y)", but I could also imagine that it might be found under a name like "scatter graph" or something. Maybe you can go by the icons: The small preview for this type shows randomly distributed little markers, in one thumbnail without connections, in another thumbnail interconnected in no orderly fashion with straight lines, and there's a third thumbnail with "smoothed" connections.
Name and icon might be a bit misleading, I'm afraid. The example in the thumbnail looks much more random than our well-organized performance charts
I know what you mean with regard to flipping the axes, I gave up on that with the default diagram type too!
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
>Thanks for the comment. I have been trying to flip those axis for a while. Excel won't let me copy a column and paste to a row so everything has to be manually transferred. I don't seem to have a X/Y diagram.
Hm, I'm only familiar with the German edition of Excel, so it's probably my fault for not providing the correct English name. Literal translation of the German menu entry would be "Point (X, Y)", but I could also imagine that it might be found under a name like "scatter graph" or something. Maybe you can go by the icons: The small preview for this type shows randomly distributed little markers, in one thumbnail without connections, in another thumbnail interconnected in no orderly fashion with straight lines, and there's a third thumbnail with "smoothed" connections.
Name and icon might be a bit misleading, I'm afraid. The example in the thumbnail looks much more random than our well-organized performance charts
I know what you mean with regard to flipping the axes, I gave up on that with the default diagram type too!
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
I assume you have the altitudes at the leftmost column and speeds of different planes in adjacent columns.
Select the whole area, select Scatter Chart (I prefer "scatter with straight lines"). This gives you the most formatting options.
Now the horizontal axis is the altitude and vertical axis is the speed. To switch, Click the chart with the right mouse button-->Select Data--->Click Series1---Edit-->Choose X values (speed) with your mouse by choosing the appropriate area. Choose Y values (altitude) likewise. Same with other Series (planes). This may look complicated but can be done pretty quick.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I'm still working this, but until then, you guys will have to lie on your side and look at the chart!
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
My source gives the climb rate of the P47N at combat power as worse than the early P47s which was not good and at military power was barely over 1700 FPM up to 20000 feet.
Marshall_Stack
Senior Airman
I imagine that the lower climb rate was due to a thicker wing and the weight of the fuel.
Magister
Airman 1st Class
That "Military Climb" is at 53"Hg. Not 72"Hg (WEP) which is the P-47N's maximum power and the power level from which we judge an aircraft's maximum capabilities. What is the "D" model's "Military Power" climb figures?
Magister
Airman 1st Class
2. The rate of climb at 56.0" Hg., 2700 RPM, was 2330 ft/min. at 12,000 ft. and at 52.0" Hg., 2700 RPM, 2030 ft/min. at 12,000 ft.
This is for the late "D" model with paddle blade and the new fuel at 12,000ft. One can imagine what that figure would be at 20,000ft.
P 47D Performance Test
This is for the late "D" model with paddle blade and the new fuel at 12,000ft. One can imagine what that figure would be at 20,000ft.
P 47D Performance Test
Magister
Airman 1st Class
Interesting read. Note the "XP."
Seversky Aircraft and Republic Aviation
The XP-47N took to the air for the first time on July 22, 1944. Test comparisons were made with a P-47D-30-RE throughout the early portion of the evaluation period. Much to everyone's surprise, the XP-47N, with its greater wingspan and higher weight actually proved to have better roll performance than the D model. At 250 mph TAS, the N attained a maximum roll rate just over 100 degrees/second. The P-47D-30-RE could manage but 85 degrees/second at the same speed. At higher speeds, the N widened the gap further. In mock combat with a P-47D-25-RE, the new fighter proved to be notably superior in every category of performance. In short, the XP-47 waxed the venerable D model regardless of who was piloting the older fighter. The new wing was part of this newfound dogfighting ability, however, the more powerful C series engine played a role too. The additional horsepower allowed the N to retain its energy better than the older Thunderbolt. Perhaps the greatest performance increase was in maximum speed. Though not as fast as the stunning P-47M, the heavier N was fully 40 mph faster than the P-47D-25-RE and could generate speeds 30 mph greater than its principal rival, the Mustang. Scorching along at 467 mph @ 32,000 ft., the N could not be caught by any fighter in regular service with any air force on earth with the single exception of its M model sibling. This combination of wing and engine had pushed the N model up to the top rank of the superlative prop driven fighters then in existence.
The testing program included determining the maximum range of the fighter. This was done with various combinations of fuel loads and external drop tanks. Ultimately, a test flight was made from Farmingdale to Eglin Field in Florida. The XP-47N took off with two 315 gallon drop tanks hanging from the under-wing hardpoints. Usable fuel in these tanks totaled 600 gallons. Added to the internal fuel load, the N eased off the runway with 1,170 gallons of fuel (usable). At a gross weight of 20,166 lbs., the Thunderbolt headed south in company with a P-47D chase plane. Arriving off the coast, east of Elgin in 3 hours, 44 minutes, the external tanks were dropped. Another P-47D, already waiting at Elgin, took on the N in a mock dogfight that lasted for twenty minutes. The throttle was advanced to military power for 15 minutes of this time, with an additional five minutes in the War Emergency Power (WEP) detent. After these fun and games were concluded the N was turned around and flown back towards Farmingdale. Heavy weather over Long Island caused the plane to divert to Woodbine, New Jersey. Having flown 1,980 miles, total fuel usage was measured at 1,057.5 gallons. There was still more than 112 gallons of usable fuel remaining in the main fuselage tank, enough for another 330 miles @ 1,700 rpm in auto-lean. The XP-47N was now the king of long-range single engine fighters (the all time leader of long range escorts was the P-38L-1-LO, which could claim a combat radius of nearly 1,500 miles under ideal conditions).
Sources:
Dean, Francis, "America's Hundred Thousand: U.S. Production Fighters of WWII."
Bodie, Warren M., "Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt: Seversky to Victory."
Bodie, Warren M., "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning."
Boyne, Walter, "Clash of Wings: WWII in the Air."
Ferguson Pascalis, "Protect and Avenge: The 49th Fighter Group in WWII."
Freeman, Roger, "Thunderbolt, A History of the Republic P-47."
Freeman, Roger, "The Mighty Eighth."
Hammel, Eric, "Air War Europa."
Johnson, Robert, "Thunderbolt!"
Scutts, Jerry, "P-47 Thunderbolt Aces of the 8th Air Force."
Seversky Aircraft and Republic Aviation
The XP-47N took to the air for the first time on July 22, 1944. Test comparisons were made with a P-47D-30-RE throughout the early portion of the evaluation period. Much to everyone's surprise, the XP-47N, with its greater wingspan and higher weight actually proved to have better roll performance than the D model. At 250 mph TAS, the N attained a maximum roll rate just over 100 degrees/second. The P-47D-30-RE could manage but 85 degrees/second at the same speed. At higher speeds, the N widened the gap further. In mock combat with a P-47D-25-RE, the new fighter proved to be notably superior in every category of performance. In short, the XP-47 waxed the venerable D model regardless of who was piloting the older fighter. The new wing was part of this newfound dogfighting ability, however, the more powerful C series engine played a role too. The additional horsepower allowed the N to retain its energy better than the older Thunderbolt. Perhaps the greatest performance increase was in maximum speed. Though not as fast as the stunning P-47M, the heavier N was fully 40 mph faster than the P-47D-25-RE and could generate speeds 30 mph greater than its principal rival, the Mustang. Scorching along at 467 mph @ 32,000 ft., the N could not be caught by any fighter in regular service with any air force on earth with the single exception of its M model sibling. This combination of wing and engine had pushed the N model up to the top rank of the superlative prop driven fighters then in existence.
The testing program included determining the maximum range of the fighter. This was done with various combinations of fuel loads and external drop tanks. Ultimately, a test flight was made from Farmingdale to Eglin Field in Florida. The XP-47N took off with two 315 gallon drop tanks hanging from the under-wing hardpoints. Usable fuel in these tanks totaled 600 gallons. Added to the internal fuel load, the N eased off the runway with 1,170 gallons of fuel (usable). At a gross weight of 20,166 lbs., the Thunderbolt headed south in company with a P-47D chase plane. Arriving off the coast, east of Elgin in 3 hours, 44 minutes, the external tanks were dropped. Another P-47D, already waiting at Elgin, took on the N in a mock dogfight that lasted for twenty minutes. The throttle was advanced to military power for 15 minutes of this time, with an additional five minutes in the War Emergency Power (WEP) detent. After these fun and games were concluded the N was turned around and flown back towards Farmingdale. Heavy weather over Long Island caused the plane to divert to Woodbine, New Jersey. Having flown 1,980 miles, total fuel usage was measured at 1,057.5 gallons. There was still more than 112 gallons of usable fuel remaining in the main fuselage tank, enough for another 330 miles @ 1,700 rpm in auto-lean. The XP-47N was now the king of long-range single engine fighters (the all time leader of long range escorts was the P-38L-1-LO, which could claim a combat radius of nearly 1,500 miles under ideal conditions).
Sources:
Dean, Francis, "America's Hundred Thousand: U.S. Production Fighters of WWII."
Bodie, Warren M., "Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt: Seversky to Victory."
Bodie, Warren M., "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning."
Boyne, Walter, "Clash of Wings: WWII in the Air."
Ferguson Pascalis, "Protect and Avenge: The 49th Fighter Group in WWII."
Freeman, Roger, "Thunderbolt, A History of the Republic P-47."
Freeman, Roger, "The Mighty Eighth."
Hammel, Eric, "Air War Europa."
Johnson, Robert, "Thunderbolt!"
Scutts, Jerry, "P-47 Thunderbolt Aces of the 8th Air Force."
billswagger
Airman 1st Class
- 256
- Mar 12, 2009
i read somewhere that the P-47N and D initially lead to greater innovations in jet aircraft designs recognizing that at higher speeds a superior roll rate might be preferred over a tighter turn radius do to the fact that there are physical limitations exerted on the pilot at such higher turn speeds.
billswagger
Airman 1st Class
- 256
- Mar 12, 2009
btw...when did the N actually get into combat or participate in the war effort.?? '45??
I read a blurp on the J model which outclassed both N and M in climbing performance but building the N and M around the D and C airframes was done to save time.
taken from....XP-47J | Gallery
XP-47J
The light-weight P-47J had the R-2800-57 "C" engine which had a maximum horsepower rating of 2,800. It utilized a cooling fan aft of 4-blade propeller to cool the engine. Its speed exceeded 500 miles per hour but it was not put into production.
I read a blurp on the J model which outclassed both N and M in climbing performance but building the N and M around the D and C airframes was done to save time.
taken from....XP-47J | Gallery
XP-47J
The light-weight P-47J had the R-2800-57 "C" engine which had a maximum horsepower rating of 2,800. It utilized a cooling fan aft of 4-blade propeller to cool the engine. Its speed exceeded 500 miles per hour but it was not put into production.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
The P47N weighed with full load around a ton and a half more than early P47s. The early models climbed at military power at around 2400-2500 FPM at low altitudes. Rates dropped off to around 1800 FPM at 25000 feet. The later P47Ds did better especially with the paddle blade props.
drgondog
Major
Wasn't needed and P-80 had better performance
billswagger
Airman 1st Class
- 256
- Mar 12, 2009
P-80...the jet???? That never saw combat in ww2, did it?? I know it flew but i think it was still being developed, for the most part, before the war ended.
The P-47J was more of a demonstration of technology, with a bigger engine and lighter airframe. I don't think the P-80 was part of their consideration to save time. They wanted to take advantage of the added horse power but to mass produce the J would've taken more time not only to build the new plane, but teeth out any problems that come with testing a new airframe. It really wasn't needed, with some of the other fast planes in the allied inventory. So they just stuck with what had already worked for airframes.
i think Republic wanted people to know they could still make legendary airplanes, if needed.
