F6F Hellcat vs. P-47 Thunderbolt

[Kevin J]

The Commonwealth and the Soviets is just about it; whose everybody else? No one seems to know how many victories the Soviets claimed with the P-40, but it was not the American built aircraft that they raved most about, that was the P-39; and no one seems to know how many victories they claimed with the Kobra either.

I was watching 'The Unknown War' narrated by Burt Lancaster the other night. Apparently, the Russians destroyed 77,000 Luftwaffe planes. So if each Russian fighter destroyed 1 Luftwaffe aircraft that must add another 2400 victories to the P-40 tally, probably putting the P-40 to the number 1 best American WW2 fighter. Of course the Hurricanes we supplied would have scored another 3000 victories helping it to beat the Spitfire to the top scoring British fighter in WW2.

 

[Stig1207]

I was watching 'The Unknown War' narrated by Burt Lancaster the other night. Apparently, the Russians destroyed 77,000 Luftwaffe planes. So if each Russian fighter destroyed 1 Luftwaffe aircraft that must add another 2400 victories to the P-40 tally, probably putting the P-40 to the number 1 best American WW2 fighter. Of course the Hurricanes we supplied would have scored another 3000 victories helping it to beat the Spitfire to the top scoring British fighter in WW2.

Surely you are not serious with this post?

 

[michael rauls]

Surely you are not serious with this post?

Ok cut the number down by 50...... no make it 70% for overclaiming and the p40 is still one of the top if not the top scorring US fighter of the war.

 

[michael rauls]

The Commonwealth and the Soviets is just about it; who is everybody else? No one seems to know how many victories the Soviets claimed with the P-40, but it was not the American built aircraft that they raved most about, that was the P-39; and no one seems to know how many victories they claimed with the Kobra either.

Brazil, China, Indonesia,
Malaysia just off the top of my head but there were quite a few more. Admittedly these nations didn't nun up huge numbers in the p40 or anything else for that matter but they got a few here and there. Add those onto what the US, Commonwealth, and Russians got and I don't see how you can come in under 4000 and close to 5000 doesn't seem to much of a stretch either.

 

[Kevin J]

Surely you are not serious with this post?

Definitely not. Ho, ho, ho.

 

[Kevin J]

Brazil, China, Indonesia,
Malaysia just off the top of my head but there were quite a few more. Admittedly these nations didn't nun up huge numbers in the p40 or anything else for that matter but they got a few here and there. Add those onto what the US, Commonwealth, and Russians got and I don't see how you can come in under 4000 and close to 5000 doesn't seem to much of a stretch either.

My guess would be about 3500 to 4000 as per the Lightning and Thunderbolt.

 

[michael rauls]

My guess would be about 3500 to 4000 as per the Lightning and Thunderbolt.

My best back of the napkin counculation/ guess would be around 4000 but certainly could be a bit lower or higher.

 

[P-39 Expert]

How many did the P-39 have in Russian service?

 

[fubar57]

4924 sent...Airacobras in the Soviet Union

 

[P-39 Expert]

4924 sent...Airacobras in the Soviet Union

I phrased my question poorly, I meant how many victories did Soviet aviators have in the P-39? Thanks for your quick response.

 

[Admiral Beez]

With the Germans assessing captured P-47s and the Japanese assessing captured Hellcats, I wonder if they ever compared notes.

 

[fubar57]

What the Japanese thought of the Hellcat...

"[Advantages]
a. Sturdy Grumman structure.
b. Easy to maneuver.
c. Speed and activation are excellent.
d. Equipped with very heavy armament.
e. Bullet-proof facilities are sturdy.

[Disadvantages]
a. Not the fastest U.S. fighter.
b. Not necessarily so agile as Zero fighter.


[Hints for air-combat]
As Hellcat is agile and equipped with the powerful engine, combat at altitude 18,000 to 21,000feet is risky.
Therefore, it is also a sort of tactics for you to bring the opponent into the low altitude combat.
When attacked, wrap against the enemy and attack from its front making use of your firearms as much as possible.
Showing your tail is risky. Also, as Hellcat pilots think their teamwork tactics as an insurance, once the team is broken into 1 v 1 fight, it is unexpectedly easy for you to fight but you must study how to break the formation first."

Captured F6F

 

[Stig1207]

My best back of the napkin counculation/ guess would be around 4000 but certainly could be a bit lower or higher.

Let's see USAAF victories 2256 + vague number of RAF/ CW victories + unknown number of Soviet victories = ????

 

[Kevin J]

Let's see USAAF victories 2256 + vague number of RAF/ CW victories + unknown number of Soviet victories = ????

RAF and Commonwealth is about 810. Soviet victories unknown but IIRC, Hurricane victories totalled about 500, the P-40 was better, so we should be able to bung on at least 1300 to the USAAF totals.

 

[michael rauls]

RAF and Commonwealth is about 810. Soviet victories unknown but IIRC, Hurricane victories totalled about 500, the P-40 was better, so we should be able to bung on at least 1300 to the USAAF totals.

It really does sound like about 3500 would be an " at least" number. Perhaps my statement earlier that it might be as high as the upper 4000s was a bit optimistic but the lower 4000s doesn't seem at all out of the question.

 

[Kevin J]

It really does sound like about 3500 would be an " at least" number. Perhaps my statement earlier that it might be as high as the upper 4000s was a bit optimistic but the lower 4000s doesn't seem at all out of the question.

Yep, the Russians were still using them in 1944 as escort fighters on the Karelian front and scoring victories. So definitely an underrated fighter.

 

[michael rauls]

Yep, the Russians were still using them in 1944 as escort fighters on the Karelian front and scoring victories. So definitely an underrated fighter.

I once read a kida vuage quote by a Russian commander of some rank I can't recall at the moment that P40s were used " right through the liberation of Bavaria"
Also, something of which many are not aware is that there were 3 RAAF units( the 450th being the one that comes to mind at the moment) that were flying kityhawks in front line service out of the northern tip of Italy right up until VE day.
So contairy to what we read/ hear about the p40 all over the net and in many books they were used in front line service in Europe and right up until the end.

 

[Kevin J]

I once read a kida vuage quote by a Russian commander of some rank I can't recall at the moment that P40s were used " right through the liberation of Bavaria"
Also, something of which many are not aware is that there were 3 RAAF units( the 450th being the one that comes to mind at the moment) that were flying kityhawks in front line service out of the northern tip of Italy right up until VE day.
So contairy to what we read/ hear about the p40 all over the net and in many books they were used in front line service in Europe and right up until the end.

And still scoring victories in the Pacific.

 

[Shortround6]

Ki 27s scored a few victories in the spring of 1945 (very few), doesn't mean anybody (their pilots included) thought they were a first line aircraft.

 

[michael rauls]

Ki 27s scored a few victories in the spring of 1945 (very few), doesn't mean anybody (their pilots included) thought they were a first line aircraft.

Don't think we were asserting the p40 was a top of the line aircraft in 1945 as it didn't get the continued development other types like the Bf109 got. The p51 was better overall and the USAAF wisely choose to go with that. The p40 more or less got locked in time after F/L series.
But all the more notable that it was still in front line service in several theaters and still doing pretty well in its limited numbers even late in the war. Imho.