failed Me210 effect on Bf110 night fighters series?

[taly01]

I have been been researching german NF and found the failure of the Me210 meant the production of the Bf110 was severely compromised as it had been halted then had to be restarted! The German Air Ministry claimed up to 2000 planes production was lost! This went into 1942 when the creation of a NF force turned out to have been critical. Its a wonder if the Me210 could have been the high performance night fighter to really make a difference anyway?

For the Bf110G-4 night fighter alone i have a figure of 2293 which seems realistic, and total figures of 850 Bf110E and 500 Bf110F fighters were made, but i guess the number of Bf110E with radar was very low, while maybe a third of Bf110F may have been Bf110F-4 with radar . Are the numbers of the early Bf110 nf with radar known?

 

[GregP]

It is difficult to get good Bf 110 production numbersm for some reason. I have seen a total of 6170 claimed in several places, but cannont seem to find a total for all variants, of which I have about 42 variants. When I a d up the numbers I CAN find, I get 5012 total production.

I can find a total of 6 Bf 110A. 45 Bf 110B, no total for the Bf 110C (but numbers for the C-0 and C-1), no numbers for the D, 856 E's, 512 F's, 3268 G's through the G-4, and no numbers for the H.

For a plane that was not especially loved by the Luftwaffe, it seems funny not to at least track production. Or it does to me. Perhapos the numbers were lost in the war.

Those totals were from,"Zerstorer Volume One: Luftwaffe Fighter Bombers and Destroyers 1941-1945."

I think the Bf 110 was greatly underappreciated by Germany, and could have been the night fighter from the start. It wasn't ever going to be a day fighter in the presence of Spitfires or P-51s, but was a good aircraft and could have found a LOT of use at night earlier. To my way of thinking, the Me 210 could have been saved.

Personally, I can't see much difference between the Bf 110 and the Me 210, externally. So it SHOULD have been easily possib;e to fix it. That it wasn't is surprising since the Me 410 also seem VERY similar, at least in early models. I wonder how hard they TRIED to fix it, as I've never seen a picture of one with larger fins. I have seen picture sof a lot of them, but no attempted "fixes" on the Me 210. It seems consigned to the circular file.

We have a few aerodynamicists in here, but I would not ask any to look at the Me 210, especially since actual planes may be hard to find, but I wonder if any have ever pondered what was wrong with the Me 210 already. I have and can't think of any reason why it could not be "fixed," and fairly quickly to boot.

I'd have tried, as a minimum, larger fins and rudder, both same and counter rotating props, and a fixed ventral or dorsal fin, in no particular order. There was a fix in there somewhere. The fixed the instability in the P-51 and P-47 with a small dorsal when they went to bubble canopies. They fixed many planes during the war when things started to unravel. If the "Boffins" could go from the Manchester to the Lancaster, why could they not fix the Me 210? Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[davebender]

Me-210/Me-410 carried quite a bit more internal fuel. It also had the remote control barbettes for rear defense. Could those features have been added to Me-110?

 

[Balljoint]

I agree. My take is that the Me-210 was considered an evolution of the Me-110. It was a "safe" upgrade and rushed into production without proper testing. However, the tail empennage was short coupled to minimize drag leading to yaw instability. Not difficult to fix. But, like the lack of testing, the war pressures led to poor decisions.

 

[Denniss]

Messerschmitt Bf 110 – Wikipedia
production by variant and manufacturer, based on RLM data. It does not contain prototypes and the A-0 preproduction series. Multiple preproduction variants like B/C/E/F-0 were either not existing or rebuilt from older versions.

 

[pbehn]

The Bf 110 was a great aircraft, however it would always come off second best in air combat with single engined fighters. the Erprobungsgruppe performed well in the BoB as a strike bomber, the bf110 did well as a night fighter neither of which roles it was designed for. From what i have read about the Bf210 is that it was designed for a role no one knew much about, put on a lot of weight and ended up hardly better than the plane it was due to replace.

 

[GregP]

My take on it was instability of an unspecified nature, and I think it was in yaw with possibly a bit of a pitch stability problem with it, but that is from reading several things that really didn't narrow it down past "instability." If you shorten it up, you can "make up for it" with tail volume. In some way, the issues with the Me 210 should have been able to be addressed, but perhaps wartime pressures did it in, after all.

Wouldn't be the first time that happened.

 

[stona]

The Bf 110 was a great aircraft, however it would always come off second best in air combat with single engined fighters. the Erprobungsgruppe performed well in the BoB as a strike bomber, the bf110 did well as a night fighter neither of which roles it was designed for. From what i have read about the Bf210 is that it was designed for a role no one knew much about, put on a lot of weight and ended up hardly better than the plane it was due to replace.

Erprobungsgruppe 210 got hammered too, when they go caught. I would recommend John Vasco's 'Bombsights Over England- Erprobungsgruppe 210 in the Battle of Britain' to anyone with an interest in this unit.

The Me 210 was supposed to replace several types in service with the Luftwaffe, most notably the Bf 110 and Ju 87.

Cheers

Steve

 

[pbehn]

Erprobungsgruppe 210 got hammered too, when they go caught. I would recommend John Vasco's 'Bombsights Over England- Erprobungsgruppe 210 in the Battle of Britain' to anyone with an interest in this unit.

It is the commanders job to take steps to ensure they dont get caught and hammered.

 

[taly01]

thanks for the link for production numbers Denniss, and I learnt Aufklarar is reconnaissance I guess any radar-nachtjager before factory built Bf110F-4 were field "prototypes" only.

The only advantage of the Me210 seems to be it had internal ordnance storage and bigger internal fuel tanks unlike the Bf110, to make it a better tactical support bomber? It seems not to really have offered much as a superior night fighter, I guess chasing Whitleys, Wellingtons, and Hampdens over 1941-42 didn't create urgency for a faster night fighter than the Bf110.

 

[stona]

It is the commanders job to take steps to ensure they dont get caught and hammered.

Difficult when you don't understand the enemy's fighter control system....and then attack the wrong target

Cheers

Steve

 

[pbehn]

Difficult when you don't understand the enemy's fighter control system....and then attack the wrong target

True, but the LW efforts to understand how the RAF operated were poor to say the least. Did they really think that they were intercepted by chance? Even when almost ali raids were parried in some way some managed to convince themselves that the RAF was down to its last 50 fighters.

 

[ChrisMcD]

I agree. My take is that the Me-210 was considered an evolution of the Me-110. It was a "safe" upgrade and rushed into production without proper testing. However, the tail empennage was short coupled to minimize drag leading to yaw instability. Not difficult to fix. But, like the lack of testing, the war pressures led to poor decisions.

I think you are right. As I understand it a major part of the problem was Willi Messerschmidt's refusal to accept that he had cocked up with various "improvements" like the short fuselage. A whole series of quick fixes, that would not upset the production lines, failed to do more than make its handling marginal.

Even after all the "fixes" (lengthened fuselage, wing slots, DB 603's, twin fins etc) the 210/410 series had very mediocre handling characteristics - "knife edged" was Winkle Brown's comments. He much preferred the 110's handling and considered it a very nice aircraft that had it's reputation unfairly blackened by the BoB.

 

[tomo pauk]

Me-210/Me-410 carried quite a bit more internal fuel. It also had the remote control barbettes for rear defense. Could those features have been added to Me-110?

Probably could. But then - I'd try to remove as much of items from the 110 as possible, in order to gain performance.

I agree. My take is that the Me-210 was considered an evolution of the Me-110. It was a "safe" upgrade and rushed into production without proper testing. However, the tail empennage was short coupled to minimize drag leading to yaw instability. Not difficult to fix. But, like the lack of testing, the war pressures led to poor decisions.

Me 210 was not the upgrade of 110, but a whole new aircraft. Whole Me 214/410 program was a major boost to the Allied cause.

 

[stona]

A few facts to help understand the timeline.
The requirements for s successor to the Bf 110, what would become the Me 210/410, were drawn up before the Bf 110 even saw service, in late 1936 around the time the Bf 161, Bf 162, Fw 57 and Hs 124 were all cancelled.

By June 1940 the first Bf 110s were being fitted with ETC racks, converting them into 'Stukazerstorer', it is no accident that the unit to test and develop tactics for this role was called Erprobungsgruppe 210. this was always the intended role of the Me 210, though it would eventually enter production as a zerstorer.
October 1940 it is decided to maintain a force of 120 Bf 110 night fighters.

December 1941 the Luftwaffe has only 44 Bf 110s remaining in their original zerstorer role (just 28 operational).

6th March 1942 the possibility of abandoning the Me 210 is discussed, it would be replaced in the six planned Me 210 groups with Bf 110s and Bf 109s.
10th March Goering cancels the Me 210 and orders the resources freed up at Messerschmitt to be devoted to the other two types.

It is around this time that Goering had a row with Malz who attempted to explain that the Me Bf 110 was not a full blown inspiration for the Me 210, but was in fact an entirely new aircraft. Goering would not accept this saying that both Udet and Messerschmitt had told him the opposite. There is certainly evidence that the Me 210 was sold to the RLM as a development of the Bf 110, when Messerschmitt certainly knew that it was far from that.
By the end of the month it became obvious that there was a shortage of Bf 110s to equip the six groups originally planned for the Me 210. This is just a reflection of the shambles that was the Me 210 project and its management by Messerschmitt, the Luftwaffe and RLM. This did not affect the number of night fighters at this time.

By April there is more indecision, with the Ju 88 and Ar 240 being suggested as replacements for the Me 210 and Bf 110.
In May Prof. Messerschmitt is effectively fired, he is limited to design and development work. This month sees the RLM seek specific requirements for the replacement of the Bf 110 night fighter. The He 219 emerges as the favourite.

On 19th June Milch emphasises that Bf 109 and Bf 110 production is to take priority over Me 210 production, which is being wound up, at all times. When the Me 210s are finished Augsburg is to build wings for the Bf 110.

August 1942 , Bf 110 production limited by supply of DB 605 engines.

The next few days once again reflect the shambles of German aircraft production.

18th August 1942. A comparison is made between the performance data of the Bf 110, Ar 240, Fw187, Me 210 and Me 210 with DB 603 G. The Ar 240 ('would have to be built from the ground up')and Fw 187 ('no advantages whatsoever as a zerstorer') are axed (again) and as Bf 110 production is currently at a standstill it to is to be dropped.
20th August. Goering approves a recovery plan fro the Bf 110 and axes the Go 244, which hadn't been considered two days earlier.

Now, I can continue on in this vein up to the end of the war, but to what purpose. The original premise was that it was the 'failure' of the Me 210/410 programme that led to lost Bf 110 production, and in particular of the night fighter versions.
That is far too simplistic. Yes, the Me 210/410 programme did reduce production of other Messerschmitt types, importantly the Bf 109 and Bf 110, but it did not do so in a vacuum. It did so in an atmosphere of conflicting interests, indecision. half truths and, frankly, confusion. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) this was a common theme for all German aircraft production throughout the war.

Cheers

Steve

 

[taly01]

I'm beginning to understand the situation better now. The yearly production figures for the Bf110 show a gap in 1941-42 of around 1600 aircraft, caused by the Me210 debacle. Anyhow since it was not until late 1942 that there was enough AI radar sets produced the Me210 did not have a large effect on the night fighters effectivness, and they did not really know what "ideal" night fighter was needed yet, the RLM choice of He219 as best bet in April 1942 is probably right.

Perhaps the lost Bf110/210 production hurt the day squadrons more than the night fighters!

 

[stona]

Perhaps the lost Bf110/210 production hurt the day squadrons more than the night fighters!

It definitely reduced the number of operational zerstorer/stukazerstorer wings. The use of the Ju 87 and Bf 109 in these units, in lieu of the Me 210 and Bf 110 speaks volumes.

As stated above, in May 1942 the RLM ordered the stoppage of Me 210 production at Augsburg and Regensburg. In 1941-42 Regensburg produced just 94 Me 210s and no Bf 110s at all.

Bf 109 production was also compromised. Between October 1941 and March 1942 not a single Bf 109 left Regensburg for a front line unit. In the first three months of 1942 just 11 Bf 109s were produced, all destined for the Luftwaffe Erprobungsstelle at Rechlin. In May a target of 50 Bf 109s per month was set for Regensburg, gradually rising to 250 per month. If we take the lower figure we can estimate that the production of between 200 and 300 Bf 109s was lost in just one six month period!

The utter shambles at Augsburg was arguably even worse than that at Regensburg.

I don't think it is easy to quantify the lost production of Bf 110s and Bf 109s, but it was substantial, and completely avoidable.

Later in the war the Bf 110 soldiered on as an adequate night fighter. There were always plans to replace it, degenerating into typical Nazi fantasy in the final stages of the war, but it always remained in production, indeed there were several planned increases in production. As late as September 1944 the Luftwaffe was accepting 187 Bf 110 G-4s, it was only with the introduction of the Emergency Fighter Programme in November that Bf 110 production was finally curtailed, though not halted. The last Bf 110 G-4s known to have been produced, at least for which supporting paper work survived, rolled off the lines in February 1945. The British found brand new but sabotaged Bf 110s at the Luther Works (Braunschweig Waggum) after the end of the war.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Denniss]

In early 1941 Mtt Augsburg produced on average 40-50 Bf 110s, Mtt Regensburg did not produce 110s at all. MttA built 61 Me 210 in 41 and further 34 in 1/42, MttR built 32 Me 210s in 41 and further 47 up to 2/42
Focke-Wulf was dropping out of 110 production in mid 41 to focus on the Fw 190
Luther-Werke Braunschweig and Gotha produced ~30 Bf 110s until autumn 41, slowly changing to Me 210s. Changeover at Gotha was probably stopped as they never completed a 210. Gotha built the last 110 in 12/41 and restarted production in 2/42 with 4 delivered and back to 1941 production level in 3/42.
Luther-Werke produced 9 210s in 41/42, restarting Bf 110 production in 2/42 but not reaching 41 levels until mit 42

 

[stona]

In early 1941 Mtt Augsburg produced on average 40-50 Bf 110s, Mtt Regensburg did not produce 110s at all.

A good point about Regensburg, re-reading my post above, it is a little unclear and might be taken to imply that Bf 110s were supposed to be produced there, which was never the case.

To be clear, Messerschmitt GmbH Regensburg, between 1938 and 1945, produced the following types; Bf 108, Bf 109, Me 163, Me 210, Me 321/323 and Me 262.

By far the largest number produced was various versions of the Bf 109, totaling nearly 11,000 aircraft.

Production was widely dispersed, we should not forget that Messerschmitt had facilities under the Flossenburg and later Mauthausen concentration camps (actually in the subsidiary Gusen I and II camps at St Georgen rather than Mauthausen proper), but all came under the 'umbrella' of Messerschmitt Regensburg. This was Nazi Germany.

Cheers

Steve

 

[taly01]

Heres a Luftwaffe veteran account I found, interesting he mentioned the nightfighter diversion of Bf110's. The Me210 sounds like a total debacle, bad plane history can be more interesting than good planes

<<<<In 1942, they moved us back to Germany—in Bavaria—and took all our planes away. They were going to be used as night fighters. And they gave us a new version of the 110, the Messerschmitt 210. It was a beautiful plane to look at,...................But there were many accidents as we were getting trained to fly the 210. The plane would just suddenly drop out of the sky. Nobody could understand what was going on. Our casualties in training were as bad as when we were in Russia. Pretty soon, the people in Germany were talking about it, because they could see what was happening to the airplanes. So they took us away, and moved us to France for more training – near Tours. The same thing happened there, and pretty soon people were talking about it over there, too. So they made us stop flying those planes...... Suddenly, the whole [training] stopped, and we got the 110s back, and they quickly they sent us back to Russia.>>>>