Fairey Albacore. Was so awful?

[Admiral Beez]

The Albacore lifted more off a naval carrier deck, further and faster. Did excellent dive bombing in the Western Desert and the Channel ports. Cruised faster than a Swordfish flat out. Twice the bomb load of a Fairey Battle or Bristol Blenheim and four times that of a Skua. It's operational cruising speed was similar to the Japanese Nakajima B5N. Technically it remained in service (in Aden in 1946) beyond the service of the Swordfish.

Good points. The Albacore was the best biplane maritime strike aircraft of WW2, which by its later entry, makes sense. Others like the Fieseler Fi 167, Yokosuka B4Y, Fairey Swordfish, Vickers Vilderbeest, Levasseur PL.107, and Douglas XT3D were uncompetitive vs. the Albacore, some so bad as not getting past prototypes.

 

[Ovod]

Well I get the following:-

Arizona 7/12/41 Pearl Harbour. 4x800kg AP hits and 3 near misses.

Roma 9/43 hit by 2x Fritz X 3,500lb AP guided bombs while at sea.

Tirpitz 12/11/44 hit by 2x12,000lb Tallboy plus a near miss (plus the earlier Tallboy hit that wrecked her bow)

Ise 28/7/45 Finally sank after 2 days of air attacks that resulted in 16 bomb hits and numerous near misses.

Hyuga 24-26/7/45 slowly settled to the bottom and abandoned after receiving 10 bomb hits and at least 30 near misses on the 24th.

Haruna 28/7/45. Finally sank after 2 days of air attacks that only succeeded in hitting her 13 times and near missing her 10 times.

Note only one of those sinkings occurred while the ship was sailing in open water, and just how much difficulty the USN had in sinking those 3 in Japanese harbours.

To this list we can add the Marat, the Soviet battleship sunk in Kronstadt harbour by Ju-87 dive bombers in September 1941.

 

[Admiral Beez]

whoops, wrong thread.

 

[SaparotRob]

Is he still alive?

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Fairey is half of my fantasy CAG for Hermes when she survives Nagumo's visit to Ceylon. Six Applecores, six folding Martlets. Until a forward crash barrier and tailwheel outriders can be fitted - then it's eight Applecores, six (or eight) folding Martlets.

 

[Shortround6]

Unless you are really lucky such a small air component is just going to provide target practice service to the Japanese without them having to pay for it themselves.
The Hermes can provide scout/recon service in the Indian Ocean (or South Atlantic) looking for commerce raiders or blockade runners (surface or submarine) but trying to take part in a carrier action will probably mean it can show how to die bravely.

 

[EwenS]

Unless you are really lucky such a small air component is just going to provide target practice service to the Japanese without them having to pay for it themselves.
The Hermes can provide scout/recon service in the Indian Ocean (or South Atlantic) looking for commerce raiders or blockade runners (surface or submarine) but trying to take part in a carrier action will probably mean it can show how to die bravely.

Akin to the role played by the escort carriers Battler, Begum and Shah from Oct 1943 and through 1944.

A History of H.M.S. BATTLER

A History of H.M.S. BEGUM

A History of H.M.S. SHAH

It was however Oct 1942 before German U-boats reached South African waters, and mid-1943 before their base at Penang began to become operational, allowing more widespread operations in the IO.

Ship losses by month - uboat.net

The U-boat War in World War Two (Kriegsmarine, 1939-1945) and World War One (Kaiserliche Marine, 1914-1918) and the Allied efforts to counter the threat. This section includes over 21.000 Allied Warships and over 11.000 Allied Commanders of WWII, from the US Navy, Royal Navy, Royal Canadian...

uboat.net

Monsun Gruppe - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

From memory the last German surface raider to operate in the IO was the Michel.

German auxiliary cruiser Michel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But others like Stier were active in the South Atlantic in 1942/43.

 

[Shortround6]

The Albacore lifted more off a naval carrier deck, further and faster. Did excellent dive bombing in the Western Desert and the Channel ports. Cruised faster than a Swordfish flat out. Twice the bomb load of a Fairey Battle or Bristol Blenheim and four times that of a Skua. It's operational cruising speed was similar to the Japanese Nakajima B5N

A little cherry picking here? I will do a little cherry picking of my own.
Albacore cruised faster than an SE 5A fighter flat out ( not a big surprise)
Twice the bomb load how far? The FB and BB could carry 1000lbs further than the Albacore's ferry range (no bombs)
Finns got over 1700lbs into Blenheim's

Gee, take the doors off the Blenheim or carry the bombs under the wing?
Note this a MK I. MK IVs got extra fuel and could carry 1000lbs 400 miles further than the Albacore's ferry range.

Interesting loading on a Battle.

Poor Skua, limited to a single bomb. British didn't have a bomb heaver than 500lbs until late in 1940 and then less than 200. But somehow that is the Skua's fault?

When we are dealing with planes that were cruising around 150mph it helps to pay attention to mph and KTs. B5N cruised about 15% faster than the Albacore. Or about the same speed as a TBF using long range cruise (yes the TBF could cruise faster)

I already admitted I cherry picked, but the Albacore's ability was somewhat skewed.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Unless you are really lucky such a small air component is just going to provide target practice service to the Japanese without them having to pay for it themselves.

Agreed, but as much as I'd like to pack on an all-fighter group of eighteen Martlets to give Hermes her best odds, I don't think a larger air component is feasible given size and limited consumables. Hermes will be doomed no matter her CAG if she's caught by any IJN carrier group... which if she can last until summer 1942 is increasingly unlikely.

After Midway, Hermes can likely focus on packing on the Albacores, with perhaps three or four Martlets for air defence, adding aviation assets to the CW forces fighting in PNG, Solomons and thereabouts.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

AFAIK, the Albacore never participated in an attack on Scharnhorst. Top speed was about 145- 150 knots but they could dive nearly vertically at over 200 knots. The only time they suffered crippling losses was at Kirkenes and Petsamo (Aug 1941) when they had to fly through hills and a fjord lined with flak and then were caught un-escorted by a force of Me-110s, 109s and JU87s, and it's likely that any contemporary torpedo bomber would have suffered similar losses. 11 of the 20 Albacores that attacked Kirkenes were shot down, but probably about 3 were lost due to flak, while 1 of 9 that attacked Petsamo was shot down, probably by a 109.

Man, I hope you work in PR.

Albacore was a dud. Even if it had been an unusually good biplane bomber when it came out, it was woefully obsolete. The fact that it was a clumsy, cumbersome biplane makes it even more ghastly. And neither one nor two Vicker's K guns are adequate protection even in 1940, let alone 1943, especially when your top speed is less than 180 mph and you aren't well protected and aren't even that maneuverable! According to one report, the controls were so heavy that they could barely perform evasive action after dropping a torpedo.

The only reason they didn't lose a lot more Albacores is that unlike say, the Battle, they kept them well away from Axis fighters and flak concentrations, effectively making these aircraft almost useless except for ASW and for stuff like dropping mines, or marking targets at night. Which is why the already obsolete Swordfish had to be brought back.

Sadly the Barracuda wasn't much better either.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Albacore was a dud.

It wouldn't call it a dud, but I would suggest the Albacore was unnecessary. Just put a more powerful engine and closed hood on the Swordfish, like this RFAC Stringbag below, and keep the production running while Fairey sorts out the Barracuda.

Fairey's carrier bombers should have gone: Seal, Swordfish, Barracuda, Gannet. Skip the Albacore and Spearfish.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

It wouldn't call it a dud, but I would suggest the Albacore was unnecessary. Just put a more powerful engine and closed hood on the Swordfish, like this RFAC Stringbag below, and keep the production running while Fairey sorts out the Barracuda.

That might take a while!

View attachment 699775

Cool photo

Fairey's carrier bombers should have gone: Seal, Swordfish, Barracuda, Gannet. Skip the Albacore and Spearfish.

Skip the Barracuda! and the Gannet ... is basically just an ASW plane right?

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Don't remember about Vindicator in FAA service. I don't ser any SN or squadron Codes. It was used operationally or just for trials and evaluation?

rejected just like the even worse Brewster dive bomber they got.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Start at 6:16 and watch first the Seafire land and fold, and then the Tarpon (Avenger). It's impressive to watch the latter land, fold its own wings and roll forward. Meanwhile the Seafire needs a half dozen men to get put away.

Man that flight deck looks so dangerous with all those spinning props...

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I'd guess that the Swordfish killed more submarines than any other aircraft. With the ability to operate in all weathers, to fly slowly to observe targets, and with a good bomb load it's ideal for the job.

Nearly half of all U-Boat losses are attributed to aircraft, U-boat Losses by cause - Fates - German U-boats of WWII - Kriegsmarine - uboat.net

Too bad they never did that closed cockpit version, I'd hate to be in that wind in the north sea around the latitude of Trondheim around February on a long ASW patrol

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Swordfish continued in service on CVEs until VE day. TBFs could only operate from CVEs that had a catapult, whereas the Swordfish could typically TO unassisted, even from a CVE and could operate in weather that would often ground the TBF.

They probably coulda flown SE.5s too, but to what effect?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Skip the Barracuda! and the Gannet ... is basically just an ASW plane right?

Except for anti-ship torpedo missions, so was the depth charge-armed Swordfish and Albacore. We coldwar aviation fans remember the Gannet as a ASW and AEW bird, but it was a multirole bomber by design. Given the lack of anti-surface ship targets and the improved AA postwar, it makes sense for the Gannet to focus on ASW, but for non-ASW the Gannet could carry 16x RP-3 rockets (under the wings) and 4x MC Mk.18 - Mk.21 500lb bombs internally.

Nothing wrong with the Barracuda. Just get it into service in 1941 instead of Jan 1943. Besides tweaking the Merlin, there's nothing technically advanced on the Barracuda that precludes its earlier service.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

So far at least 6 aircraft killed more U-boats than the Swordfish.
Perhaps the Swordfish does better on kills per 100 planes deployed of kills per 1000 missions?

However some of the high scoring aircraft used weapons unavailable to the Swordfish, like homing torpedoes.

PBY and B-24 / PB4Y near the top? Sunderland?

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Dive bombers are gonna have a hard time sinking battleships.

But they have a very well established record of crippling them

 

[Admiral Beez]

But they have a very well established record of crippling them

Indeed. The Barracuda crippled Tirpitz for two months in 1944.

Stukas did manage to sink the battleship Marat in 1941.