yulzari
Tech Sergeant
My understanding is that these were supplied some years afterwards and in a very different form. Their radars went on to serve in Fairey Gannets and then Avro Shackletons until 1991I believe.
Fairey Albacore. Was so awful?
- Thread starter Escuadrilla Azul
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The last two wartime frontline Avenger squadrons, 820 & 828, retained Avengers until they returned home on their parent carriers, Indefatigable & Implacable, in March & June 1946 respectively.
Beyond that the RN retained about 21 of the then latest TBM-3E aircraft that had been delivered in July 1945. These were used for trials purposes postwar. One user was 703 squadron, the naval flight of the RAF Air-Sea Warfare Development Unit (NASWDU). Some were used for steam catapult trials on Perseus in 1950/51. They were a diminishing asset, but the last one was not struck off charge until Sept 1955.
Then in 1953, due to delays in the delivery of Fairey Gannets for ASW work, the US delivered 100 TBM-3E under MDAP to replace the remaining ASW Barracudas and Fireflies in front line units. These arrived in the UK between March & May 1953 on the Perseus. The first of these went, unmodified, to 703, 815 & 824 squadrons until the end of the year. These aircraft and the other deliveries were modified to British standards at Scottish Aviation Limited at Prestwick becoming AS.4 & AS.5 aircraft and entering service in 1954. These went on to serve with 700, 703, 744, 745, 751, 767 814, 815, 820, 824 until Gannets began to arrive in 1955, when some were passed to the RNVR squadrons, 1830, 1841 & 1844 squadrons until they disbanded in March 1957 as part of the defence cuts of that year.
Some were then converted to ECM.6 models for use by 751 & 831 squadrons until 1960 by which time ECM variants of the Gannet had begun to become available.
The bulk of the AS.4 & AS.5 aircraft were transferred to France and the Netherlands in 1957/58.
It was the AN/APS-20 radar sets from the Skyraider AEW.1 (ex USN AD-4W some of which had been refurbished) that were upgraded and installed in the Gannet AEW.3 and then onto the Shackleton AEW.2 in the 1970s. 50 Skyraider AEW.1 arrived in the UK between Oct 1951 and April 1956 under MDAP. These served until the end of 1960 by which time the Gannet AEW.3 was entering service.
Beyond that the RN retained about 21 of the then latest TBM-3E aircraft that had been delivered in July 1945. These were used for trials purposes postwar. One user was 703 squadron, the naval flight of the RAF Air-Sea Warfare Development Unit (NASWDU). Some were used for steam catapult trials on Perseus in 1950/51. They were a diminishing asset, but the last one was not struck off charge until Sept 1955.
Then in 1953, due to delays in the delivery of Fairey Gannets for ASW work, the US delivered 100 TBM-3E under MDAP to replace the remaining ASW Barracudas and Fireflies in front line units. These arrived in the UK between March & May 1953 on the Perseus. The first of these went, unmodified, to 703, 815 & 824 squadrons until the end of the year. These aircraft and the other deliveries were modified to British standards at Scottish Aviation Limited at Prestwick becoming AS.4 & AS.5 aircraft and entering service in 1954. These went on to serve with 700, 703, 744, 745, 751, 767 814, 815, 820, 824 until Gannets began to arrive in 1955, when some were passed to the RNVR squadrons, 1830, 1841 & 1844 squadrons until they disbanded in March 1957 as part of the defence cuts of that year.
Some were then converted to ECM.6 models for use by 751 & 831 squadrons until 1960 by which time ECM variants of the Gannet had begun to become available.
The bulk of the AS.4 & AS.5 aircraft were transferred to France and the Netherlands in 1957/58.
It was the AN/APS-20 radar sets from the Skyraider AEW.1 (ex USN AD-4W some of which had been refurbished) that were upgraded and installed in the Gannet AEW.3 and then onto the Shackleton AEW.2 in the 1970s. 50 Skyraider AEW.1 arrived in the UK between Oct 1951 and April 1956 under MDAP. These served until the end of 1960 by which time the Gannet AEW.3 was entering service.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Right, so saying the RAF ditched them in the 40s is not entirely accurate.
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
The Royal Navy not the Royal Air Force and they were ditched to avoid paying for them. Especially in dollars. Britain desperately needed dollars to pay for USA wheat etc. to feed not only the British population but also their responsibility for their sector of Germany. Hence civilian rations were cut further post war and USA equipment returned or thrown away if not wanted back. The Canadian Ram tanks had some surplus sales as payment would be in Canadian dollars not USA ones and the Dutch bought quite a few. I recall seeing several built into fixed airfield defence systems many years ago. But I digress.
An economic measure, not an operational one. There was only a short period for their return without incurring financially crippling charges.
The ones bought were very different Avengers and met a need not required during the war so, if the Fleet Air Arm had kept some of it's wartime Avengers they would not have been able to meet that new post war need.
Shortround6
Major General
Basically the "need" seemed to arrive in early to mid 50s when the Gannet failed to be delivered in time.
The RN needed anti-sub aircraft to counter the better Soviet subs (Whiskey class) coming into service. It took the Soviets a number of years to get these boats into production. 1951 saw 1. 1952 saw 9 and 1953 saw 30 with much heavier production through 1957.
The RN didn't need much in the way of AS aircraft in 1940s and early 50s except to keep their hand in. Once the Soviets started to expand their fleet and areas of influence the RN needed more aircraft. The Gannet had flown in 1949 but it was still in development in 1953 and the first 4 service aircraft don't show up until 1954. Production will not meet needs for several years so the Avengers were ordered from US stocks (and paid for by MDAP) until enough Gannets could be built/issued.
The RN needed anti-sub aircraft to counter the better Soviet subs (Whiskey class) coming into service. It took the Soviets a number of years to get these boats into production. 1951 saw 1. 1952 saw 9 and 1953 saw 30 with much heavier production through 1957.
The RN didn't need much in the way of AS aircraft in 1940s and early 50s except to keep their hand in. Once the Soviets started to expand their fleet and areas of influence the RN needed more aircraft. The Gannet had flown in 1949 but it was still in development in 1953 and the first 4 service aircraft don't show up until 1954. Production will not meet needs for several years so the Avengers were ordered from US stocks (and paid for by MDAP) until enough Gannets could be built/issued.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Dumb mistake on my part, and I blame not enough coffee. Thanks for catching it.
Right, they were updated and not the same planes the FAA (lol) dunked in 1945, but I was simply pointing out that the FAA did use them post-war, hence, not "entirely accurate".
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I sometimes think about those planes. I'm sure the RN kept a record of where the planes were dumped. Any chance some might be in an area of the sea bottom where one or two might be salvageable? I understand the Atlantic ain't like Lake Michigan but are there other areas where the planes were ditched?
Off the east coast of Australia around Brisbane and Sydney, areas where the BPF had shore bases. HMS Pioneer is supposed to have dumped 300 aircraft in deep water about 20 miles off Sydney Heads in Jan 1946, and another 70, including Barracudas, off Brisbane a few days later. Perseus was reported in local press reports to be due to dump 115 mainly Corsairs and Hellcats from RNAS Archerfield near Brisbane in Feb 1946.
Indian Ocean off Ceylon. Off the South African coast near Cape Town (RNAS Wingfield had been a big base for squadrons converting to the Hellcat in 1944/45) and Colossus was involved in that after her Jan-Mar 1946 refit at Simonstown.
To locate the areas, you would need the individual ships' logs for the carriers involved. But the references I have seen all refer to "deep water" and the areas involved suggest they would be beyond economic recovery depth. Off Sydney the waters rapidly exceed 200 feet deep. Off Brisbane the dump sites are reported to be 200m (660 feet ) down. The objective after all was ensure they couldn't be used again.
The RN did not retain records for each individual aircraft in the way that the RAF did. So there is little to tell which aircraft got dumped where.
You might find this interesting. Seems some recovery attempt was made in the 1990s.
And more generally
All sorts of stuff got dumped all over the world. Off Northern Ireland is a U-boat graveyard courtesy of Operation Deadlight.
Operation Deadlight - Wikipedia
Large quantities of munitions, including gas weapons, were dumped in Beaufort's Dyke between Scotland and Ireland.
Beaufort's Dyke - Wikipedia
The waters off Hawaii were another dumping ground for surplus and captured military equipment including the Japanese aircraft carrying submarines I-14, I-400 & I-401
Other Japanese subs were sunk off Japan beyond the 100 fathom (600 ft) line.
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 43,395
- Mar 26, 2007
But with a little luck they will look as the wildcat plane recently found on the sunken carrier.
When you introduce RADAR and all weather ASW into the job, good performance sometimes becomes the ability to fly very slowly. The Swordfish first flew in 1934, the year when Watson Watt was asked to look into ways to detect aircraft by radio waves, so it turned out to be quite good at a job no one even dreamed of. Most of the improvements of the Albacore did not apply in the ASW role.
ASW patrols, just like CAP, were one of the routine functions even the fleet carriers needed to perform throughout the war unless the weather got too bad to fly. So ASW was performed by the Albacore from the beginning of its service, just like the Swordfish, Barracuda & Avenger. And it gained ASV.II radar from around the end of 1941, a bit later than the Swordfish. What it didn't get was the centimetric set carried by the Swordfish III, but that didn't appear until mid-1944, by which time the Albacore had left front line service.
Some of the discussion here gives the impression that the Swordfish could fly any time any where regardless of the weather. It might be able to fly in worse conditions than some other aircraft but Atlantic weather would often see them "grounded" and they were just as prone to flying and non-flying accidents and associated damage as other carrier aircraft when that happened.
Xmas Eve 1943, the MAC tanker Empire Mackay had her 3 aircraft severely damaged on her flight deck in heavy weather, with no flying possible and the aircraft not repairable on board.
Convoy JW61 to Murmansk was another case where not only was the escort carrier Tracker unable to fly her Avengers, but Vindex & Nairana were unable to fly their Swordfish for several days. Nairana's aircraft were however the first to get airborne again when the weather abated slightly.
Ultimately, the point about the Albacore was that as the more modern aircraft it was the preferred choice for flying from the fleet carriers when the numbers available permitted. Only Illustrious in the IO soldiered on with the Swordfish until she came in for refit in early 1943. By then the Albacore was out of production and a dimishing asset. Illustrious was then the first to get the Barracuda. And by that point the Swordfish had already been chosen for service from the escort carriers since 1941.
415 squadron then in RAF Coastal Command, had an Albacore flight from Oct 1943 for anti E-boat work based out of Bircham Newton, Norfolk, and then Manston, alongside its Wellingtons. In July 1944 it transferred to Bomber Command. The Albacore flight then became 119 squadron which operated Albacores until Jan 1945 when they were replaced by Swordfish III until May 1945.
Throughout the war shore based FAA squadrons augmented Coastal Command, especially in the Channel and southern North Sea areas. In the run up to D-Day a number of Swordfish and Avenger squadrons were also employed. Later, in 1945 a number of Barracuda TR.III squadrons were also attached to Coastal Command. At least one squadron was engaged in the war against midget subs around the Scheldt estuary.
From the examples given it seems the Albacore was a competent enough aircraft. This is interesting to me as
I have always thought that sometimes it's a matter of timing. Had the Albacore been available earlier perhaps
it could have been the plane used at say, Taranto or some operation like that. Then it would have gained a place
in operational folklore and been judged a success.
At Matapan an Albacore scored a torpedo hit on Vittorio Veneto causing the battleship to stop for over an hour
to effect repairs. Had the torpedo caused more damage the Albacore could have achieved what a Swordfish did
against Bismark. Luck as well as timing perhaps.
I have always thought that sometimes it's a matter of timing. Had the Albacore been available earlier perhaps
it could have been the plane used at say, Taranto or some operation like that. Then it would have gained a place
in operational folklore and been judged a success.
At Matapan an Albacore scored a torpedo hit on Vittorio Veneto causing the battleship to stop for over an hour
to effect repairs. Had the torpedo caused more damage the Albacore could have achieved what a Swordfish did
against Bismark. Luck as well as timing perhaps.
Timing was undoubtedly an issue. But so was PR.
Without the delays caused by the Taurus engine, the Albacore might have entered production a few months earlier than historical. That might have allowed Illustrious' squadrons (Nov 1939 & Jan 1940) to have been equipped with them. RN policy in 1939 was to form new squadrons for carriers around 3-6 months prior to their being due to complete.
On the other hand Illustrious herself reportedly suffered some delays during her construction which I've never been able to quantify. Those occurred before mid-1939.
So it might or might not have made a difference to the Albacore's reputation so far as Taranto was concerned.
Perhaps the Albacore's greatest work was in the Med in 1941/42 in the anti-shipping and dive bomber/pathfinder roles from Malta and the Western Desert. But the activities of these squadrons were completely overshadowed by the RAF squadrons operating in theatre.
The difference between Bismarck & VV is largely one of luck. VV was severely damaged by that torpedo hit, having both shafts and rudders damaged and taking on a considerable amount of water. It took nearly 6 months to repair her. She was even luckier when the second strike found the cruiser squadron and not her.
But the luck of the Italian Fleet ran out that night. While VV escaped, Pola was torpedoed by an Albacore and stopped, and other ships returned later to support her. The success of the Albacore was then overshadowed by that of the big guns doing what they were supposed to do. This was still the world of the battleship. The aeroplane was a bit player that had fulfilled its task of slowing the enemy for the fleet's big guns to sink ships.
Without the delays caused by the Taurus engine, the Albacore might have entered production a few months earlier than historical. That might have allowed Illustrious' squadrons (Nov 1939 & Jan 1940) to have been equipped with them. RN policy in 1939 was to form new squadrons for carriers around 3-6 months prior to their being due to complete.
On the other hand Illustrious herself reportedly suffered some delays during her construction which I've never been able to quantify. Those occurred before mid-1939.
So it might or might not have made a difference to the Albacore's reputation so far as Taranto was concerned.
Perhaps the Albacore's greatest work was in the Med in 1941/42 in the anti-shipping and dive bomber/pathfinder roles from Malta and the Western Desert. But the activities of these squadrons were completely overshadowed by the RAF squadrons operating in theatre.
The difference between Bismarck & VV is largely one of luck. VV was severely damaged by that torpedo hit, having both shafts and rudders damaged and taking on a considerable amount of water. It took nearly 6 months to repair her. She was even luckier when the second strike found the cruiser squadron and not her.
But the luck of the Italian Fleet ran out that night. While VV escaped, Pola was torpedoed by an Albacore and stopped, and other ships returned later to support her. The success of the Albacore was then overshadowed by that of the big guns doing what they were supposed to do. This was still the world of the battleship. The aeroplane was a bit player that had fulfilled its task of slowing the enemy for the fleet's big guns to sink ships.
Exactly what I was wondering. A Swordfish hits Bismarck which is more famous at the time than any Italian ship
and it enhances the reputation.
As you stated Albacores hit and disable a battleship and then a heavy cruiser later on. Three cruisers were pounded point
blank as a result but no real kudos for the Albacore. In fact, most people when asked what plane torpedoed those Italian
vessels would probably guess the Swordfish.
Just the way it goes sometimes.
and it enhances the reputation.
As you stated Albacores hit and disable a battleship and then a heavy cruiser later on. Three cruisers were pounded point
blank as a result but no real kudos for the Albacore. In fact, most people when asked what plane torpedoed those Italian
vessels would probably guess the Swordfish.
Just the way it goes sometimes.
The Ablacore proved to be even more vulnerable to ground fire and fighters than the awful Swordfish.
FWIW, the British had some VERY strange ideas of what represented an acceptable naval aircraft - They rejected the superb SBD Dauntless as 'unsuitable' for combat operations and over its flight characteristics.
FWIW, the British had some VERY strange ideas of what represented an acceptable naval aircraft - They rejected the superb SBD Dauntless as 'unsuitable' for combat operations and over its flight characteristics.
But everyone forgets that Albacores caught Tirpitz cold in the North Atlantic in March 1942 and it was an utter fiasco.
They were simply too slow to mount an effected attack on a fast warship with relative speed advantages often down to double digits.
If the FAA had a credible dive bomber such as the SBD, the Kriegesmarines battleships and heavy units would have had very short and very exciting wars.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Dive bombers are gonna have a hard time sinking battleships.
Don't forget the achievements of these planes as well. Other types of torpedo bombers also suffered badly at times and
yet performed well at others.
The Swordfish can hardly be called awful considering it's contributions to the allied effort. The Albacore didn't seem to get
the breaks it needed to be better recognised.
yet performed well at others.
The Swordfish can hardly be called awful considering it's contributions to the allied effort. The Albacore didn't seem to get
the breaks it needed to be better recognised.
