Old Wizard
2nd Lieutenant
Fake B-26 photo?
- Thread starter Thorlifter
- Start date
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Finally found the images of the armorer's section for the B-17 (had it on another drive).
In these illustrations, it shows the bomb position both internally and externally based on it's size (weight).
The second illustration shows the procedures required to mount the 4 different bombs to the external racks.
In these illustrations, it shows the bomb position both internally and externally based on it's size (weight).
The second illustration shows the procedures required to mount the 4 different bombs to the external racks.
ww2restorer
Airman 1st Class
- 239
- May 28, 2011
quite correct and as I posted from the manual on post #42
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Your diagram on post #42 didn't cover the external racks/ordnance in detail.
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ww2restorer
Airman 1st Class
- 239
- May 28, 2011
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Not sure what your problem is, but it's getting old...
ww2restorer
Airman 1st Class
- 239
- May 28, 2011
I don't have a problem, buy a mirror. You made the statement that my post didn't have the data on external loads, I posted the chart with the area a highlighted showing the external loads. Grow up.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Your chart does not have the external rack mounting diagram and it doesn't have the bomb hoisting outlay. As a matter of fact, my post had nothing to do with you, as it was for some other member's benefit.
My post said:
And I cannot see anywhere in my post where I stated that yours didn't have data on external loads. What it does look like, however, is that you're trying really hard to find fault when there is none.
So might I suggest you take your own advice and grow up. I might also suggest that you get a mirror - perhaps a Golden one?
ww2restorer
Airman 1st Class
- 239
- May 28, 2011
Not trying to find fault in anything as you claim. Refer to your post quote, you state "your diagram DIDN'T ..........", I replied and showed you it did. The chart doesn't need any pretty pictures. Let it go mate.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Your precious chart doesn't show the rack...but if you're so desperate to have accolades then pat yourself on the back for a special job well done - hopefully someone will give you a hug and a cookie soon.
Meanwhile, my "pretty pictures" as you jokingly call them, came from the USAAF armorer's guide. It illustrated the external rack assembly and proper usage (which again, had nothing to do with the earlier chart) and as had been stated earlier, was directed at other people in the forum.
Truth be told, there does happen to be other people invlolved in this thread and to be honest, I'd like to get back to the discussion without you crying and throwing a tantrum over a non-issue...
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
I came across a mention that the 8th Air Force started bundling small bombs to increase the number carried on each station starting in the summer of 1943. This information was in relation to the B-24, but I'm sure it could be applied to the B-26. 100 pounders being relatively narrow, there is no reason they couldn't be bundled and fit into the B-26 bay, which as we all know was a virtual duplicate of the original B-17 bomb bay. (Not the later version that is causing so much contention above.)
wuzak
Captain
How exactly did the B-17's bomb bay change from early to late versions?
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
I'm not a B-17 expert, but the early B-17s only had a capacity of 4800 lbs.
wuzak
Captain
That may be as much about the bombs available and the power of the engines.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Not sure where you're getting your information from, but even the very first operational USAAC B-17s had a bomb capacity of 8,000 pounds.
The first operational B-17 was designated the Y1B-17. It was also the first heavy bomber in USAAC service - all 12 of them, assigned to the 2nd BG at Langley Field, Virginia in 1937.
And it's specifications were as follows:
Engines: (4) Wright R-1820-39 Cyclone - 930 hp @ T/O, 850 hp @ 5,000 ft., 775 hp @ 14,000 ft.
Max. Speed: 265 mph @ 14,000 feet
Cruise Speed: 217 mph @ 70% power
Landing Speed: 70 mph.
Service Ceiling: 30,600 feet
Time to 10,000 feet: 6.5 minutes
Normal Range: 1,377 miles
Range Clean: 3,320 miles
Range with 4,000 pound bombload: 2,400 miles
Wingspan: 103 feet, 9 3/8 inches
Length: 68 feet, 4 inches
Height: 18 feet, 4 inches
Wing Area: 1,420 sq. ft.
Weight Empty: 24,465 pounds
Weight Normal: 34,880 pounds
Weight Max.: 42,600 pounds
Defensive Armament: (5) .30 cal. MG with 1,000 rounds per weapon
Bombload Max.: 8,000 internal
So where is the 4,800 pound figure coming from?
Shortround6
Major General
It may be coming from early books which seem to be a bit confused.
Joe Baugher's website lists the books he used and in his pages he does credit the Y1B-17 with a max bomb load of 8000lbs, he then goes on to list either eight 600lb bombs or 4800lb of bombs as max for the Y1B-17A/B-17A, the The B-17B, the B-17C and the B-17D. With the B-17E getting a major increase in bomb load.
The B-17 was gaining weight at a fast pace already with with the B-17B going 27,652 pounds empty (3187lb gain) 37,997 pounds gross (3117lb gain) and 46,178 pounds maximum (3578lb gain).
A B-17D went 30,963 pounds empty, 39,319 pounds gross. (max not given)
A B-17E went 32,350 pounds empty, 40,260 pounds gross, 53,000 pounds maximum.
Bombs for the "E" are given as "26 100-pound bombs, or 16 300-pound bombs, or 12 500-pound bombs, or 8 1000-pound bombs, or 4 2000-pound bombs"
As his sources as not official publications such as flight manuals or erection manuals they may have contained mistakes.
The B-17 went through a lot of modifications and some don't seem to correlate well. AS in there are different loading diagrams for the B-17F and the B-17G with the G actually holding fewer bombs of certain sizes/weights than the F. on many other bomb sizes/weights they are identical. SO either the manuals had mistakes or there were load restrictions that are not explained in the loading diagram/s
Joe Baugher's website lists the books he used and in his pages he does credit the Y1B-17 with a max bomb load of 8000lbs, he then goes on to list either eight 600lb bombs or 4800lb of bombs as max for the Y1B-17A/B-17A, the The B-17B, the B-17C and the B-17D. With the B-17E getting a major increase in bomb load.
The B-17 was gaining weight at a fast pace already with with the B-17B going 27,652 pounds empty (3187lb gain) 37,997 pounds gross (3117lb gain) and 46,178 pounds maximum (3578lb gain).
A B-17D went 30,963 pounds empty, 39,319 pounds gross. (max not given)
A B-17E went 32,350 pounds empty, 40,260 pounds gross, 53,000 pounds maximum.
Bombs for the "E" are given as "26 100-pound bombs, or 16 300-pound bombs, or 12 500-pound bombs, or 8 1000-pound bombs, or 4 2000-pound bombs"
As his sources as not official publications such as flight manuals or erection manuals they may have contained mistakes.
The B-17 went through a lot of modifications and some don't seem to correlate well. AS in there are different loading diagrams for the B-17F and the B-17G with the G actually holding fewer bombs of certain sizes/weights than the F. on many other bomb sizes/weights they are identical. SO either the manuals had mistakes or there were load restrictions that are not explained in the loading diagram/s
fubar57
General
Bomb loads for a B-17C from the manual...
Shortround6
Major General
Thank you.
The 4800lb max would be using 600lb in place of 500lb bombs.
I would note that the B-17C (at least) seems to use a different bomb rack setup than the later versions in the sense that the outer racks only appear to have 3 stations each instead of the 8 stations shown for the version in the earlier postings/illustrations. Likewise the inner rack went from 7 stations to 13 stations on each rack.
We might actually be wondering were the 8,000lb rating for the Y1B-17 came from?
It may very well be correct for the Y1B-17 but one wonders why the reduction to the 4800lb limit on the 119 B-17s that followed the Y1B-17s. One rather cryptic note says that that on the B-17D model the external bomb racks were removed but none of the pages on Joe Baugher's site mention external racks for the previous models? Did the Y1B-17 have external racks?
The 4800lb max would be using 600lb in place of 500lb bombs.
I would note that the B-17C (at least) seems to use a different bomb rack setup than the later versions in the sense that the outer racks only appear to have 3 stations each instead of the 8 stations shown for the version in the earlier postings/illustrations. Likewise the inner rack went from 7 stations to 13 stations on each rack.
We might actually be wondering were the 8,000lb rating for the Y1B-17 came from?
It may very well be correct for the Y1B-17 but one wonders why the reduction to the 4800lb limit on the 119 B-17s that followed the Y1B-17s. One rather cryptic note says that that on the B-17D model the external bomb racks were removed but none of the pages on Joe Baugher's site mention external racks for the previous models? Did the Y1B-17 have external racks?
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johnbr
2nd Lieutenant
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Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
Top picture is a bit fanciful. By mid-'43 only one squadron still operating Marauders in Pacific, and they were B-26 MAs in natural metal finish, and no package guns.
Center photo is either 77th or 73rd BS in Alaska.
Center photo is either 77th or 73rd BS in Alaska.
