Falklands War Part 2

[Waynos]

The UK has offered to share the oil proceeds with Argentina, but they have refused to discuss it as they feel that accepting such an offer will mean accepting British Sovereignty of the Falklands.

As Sovereignty is settled and will not change they are cutting off their nose to spite their face, though I do understand the principle involved. Their loss.

 

[Colin1]

The UK has offered to share the oil proceeds with Argentina but they have refused to discuss it ...

...I do understand the principle involved

I sure as hell don't

 

[Glider]

The sad thng is that Argentina are missing a massive opportunity here, not for the oil but the support. If the largest estimates are realised then there is as much oil off the Falklands as there is in the North Sea. Argentina is the nearest country and the infrastructure needed to support such an oilfield is huge, simply huge. Vast sums would be need to be invested and they are in a significant position to hold the vast majority of the business.

But no, they get on their high horse and stand every chance of losing it all as no one will invest if they believe that the people in power could use that investment as a political pawn.

 

[Waynos]

I sure as hell don't

Its because they feel that agreeing, or even discussing, to share with Britain automatically means that they legitimise Britiains position, ie why negotiate with the squatter who has taken up residence in your shed when you think they should just leave.

Like I said, I understand what they say. Doesn't mean I agree with it as they are working from a false premise anyway.

 

[timshatz]

Didn't know there had been an offer and a refusal. Ok, now I get it.

No military conflict, standard negotiating tactics. You always turn down the first offer, well, most of the time. And that's what Argentina did. All the noise going around is just fluff. Everybody's arguements, listed above, are good and are doubtless going to be used. Hell, I could even see some of the parties involved reading the posts just to get some ideas and feelings on the matter. You may think it's odd, but that's the way it's done. Feedback on the opposition is scarce.

If there is oil under there, then there is a lot of money at stake. The Brits maybe offering 80/20 and the Argies want 40/60. And there may be other terms in there too. Very complicated when you're talking about a project this big.

Somebody made a good point about infrastructure (tip the hat to Gliderr), there is a ton of profit in the infrastructure. That could be the real deal. Ship the raw product to England and refine it there or do the same in Argentina. Big, Big Money. Crack spreads and all that.

 

[Glider]

Appreciate the comment. Re the Infrastructure its a lot more than the oil. I once had to go to Scotland to look at a new rig repair/overhaul facility and it blew me away. On an almost totally deserted part of Scotland where the nearest small town was around 15 miles away they had built this facility.
It was huge and had started from nothing just bare rock. Roads, bridges, power, water, sewerage, port facilities, docks big enough to take rigs dismantle them and rebuild them, accomadation, shops, wharehouses, a small heliport, an all weather landing strip plus a hundred other things had to be built from nothing. The money involved I can only guess at but all this is up for grabs and Argentina would do well to look at this kind of benefit or it is danger of losing the lot.

 

[comiso90]

BBC News - Gordon Brown says UK is prepared in Falkland Islands

The UK has made "all the preparations that are necessary" to protect the Falkland Islands, Prime Minister Gordon Brown has said.

However, the Ministry of Defence has denied reports that a naval taskforce is on its way to the Falklands.

Argentina has brought in controls on ships passing through its waters to the islands over UK plans to drill for oil.

Shadow foreign secretary William Hague told the BBC the Royal Navy's presence in the region should be increased.

The Sun newspaper reported that up to three ships were to join the islands' regular patrol vessel.

BBC defence correspondent Caroline Wyatt understands the destroyer HMS York and the oil supply tanker RFA Wave Ruler are in the area, as well as HMS Clyde, which is permanently based there.

However, the MoD said Britain already had a permanent naval presence in the South Atlantic as well as more than 1,000 military personnel on the islands.

'Very clear'

Speaking on Gateshead-based Real Radio in the North East, Mr Brown said he did not expect to send a taskforce to the area.

ANALYSIS
BBC defence correspondent Caroline Wyatt
Caroline Wyatt, BBC defence correspondent

It's clear that Britain has the military assets it needs in or around the Falkland Islands to back up its diplomacy with Argentina - on the principle that diplomacy succeeds best when a nation can talk softly but carry a big stick.

The MoD will only say that it is "maintaining" a deterrent force in the area, and that this is not a new taskforce - but it leaves little doubt that the UK has the means to defend the Falkland islanders already in place to back up its diplomatic stance.

But at the same time, the British government does not want to escalate the current row with Argentina, even as it remains firm on Britain's right to explore for oil around the Falklands, with the prime minister and others emphasising that they see "sensible discussions" prevailing.

Earlier this week, Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, the head of the Royal Air Force, drew attention to the situation in the South Atlantic in a speech to the International Institute of Strategic Studies, referring to the "increasingly tense situation" around the Falkland Islands to stress the need for maintaining air superiority.
Q&A: The Falklands oil row
Oil boom or no boom?
Have Your Say: How serious is row?
'We always feel threatened'

He said he hoped "sensible discussions" with Argentina would prevail, adding: "We have made all the preparations that are necessary to make sure the Falkland islanders are properly protected."

Foreign Secretary David Miliband said all UK oil exploration in the area was "completely in accordance with international law".

He added: "We maintain the security of the Falklands, and there are routine patrols continuing."

After Argentina's invasion of the Falklands in 1982, a UK taskforce seized back control in a short war that claimed the lives of 649 Argentine and 255 British service personnel.

The BBC's Andrew Harding in Buenos Aires said it was difficult to find anyone in Argentina who believed the Falklands were in danger of being at the centre of a military conflict.

But Argentine Deputy Foreign Minister Victorio Taccetti said his country would take "adequate measures" to stop oil exploration.

Meanwhile, speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Hague called for "some sort of increased naval presence - it may just be one more ship visiting more regularly" in the region.

He added: "That kind of thing would show very clearly to Argentina - with whom, again, we want friendly relations - that we will be very firm about this. It would send a signal not to misunderstand British intentions.

"One of the things that went wrong in the 1980s is that the Argentines thought we weren't really committed to the Falkland Islands. So, we mustn't make that mistake again. Our commitment should be very clear."

Buenos Aires claims sovereignty over the Falkland Islands, which it calls Islas Malvinas.

It has previously threatened that any company exploring for oil and gas in the waters around the territory will not be allowed to operate in Argentina.

Ocean bed

On Tuesday, Argentine President Cristina Fernandez signed a decree requiring all vessels travelling between Argentina and the islands, or those wanting to cross Argentine territorial waters en route to the Falklands, to seek prior permission.

But a drilling rig from the Scottish Highlands, the Ocean Guardian, is nearing the islands and is due to start drilling next week, the UK-based company Desire Petroleum has said.

Last week, a ship carrying drilling equipment was detained by Argentine officials.

Geologists say the ocean bed surrounding the Falklands could contain rich energy reserves.

Last year, Argentina submitted a claim to the United Nations for a vast expanse of ocean, based on research into the extent of the continental shelf, stretching to the Antarctic and including the island chains governed by Britain.

It is due to raise the issue at the UN next week.

 

[skeeter]

The UK needs a carrier like the Nimitz (class) to project itself during disputes like this. Can you imagine Argentina or any conglomerate of Latin countries seriously taking on, or wanting to take on, a Nimitz type carrier and its' task force? I cannot. This is not to say that America would with the current Administration in power.

 

[parsifal]

Its unrealistic to assume or advocate the RN operating a carrier the size of the Nimitz. the cost, the manning requirements, and aircraft complements are all quite beyond the capability of the middle powers.

In addition, unless adequately protected a single hull carrying all the assets is highly vulnerable. It is far far better to invest in multiple hulls with smaller less expensive airgroups attached. Sure, the Harriers carried by the Invincibles were far less capable than the F-14s of the Nimitz Class, but they could be had at a fraction of the cost, and were more than capable of achieving the force projection needs of Britain,

The British are in the process of building a 40000 ton carrier at the moment with fixed wing capability. unless they can field at least three of these hulls, I believe it will be at a disadvantage relative to the Invincible Class era, where the British were able to field multiple Hulls of small carriers.

Harriers proved more than adequate to deal with anything second line Navies airforces like those of Argentina were able to field. It is inconceivable that the british would ever be asked to fight a major power ever again on its own......

 

[Glider]

Can someone give any indication as to what Hilary Clinton is playing at!!

Argentina celebrates diplomatic coup as Hillary Clinton calls for talks over Falklands - Times Online

 

[Waynos]

Completely agree Parsival, and in the FA.2 version the Sea Harrier was the ideal fleet defence fighter for the UK with anti missile capabilities that would have made such a difference during the 1982 disagreement. Its early retirement with some airframes only three years old was crimial in my opinion. The GR.9 is a capable enough attacker, but nowhere as a fighter.

 

[Matt308]

Can someone give any indication as to what Hilary Clinton is playing at!!

Argentina celebrates diplomatic coup as Hillary Clinton calls for talks over Falklands - Times Online

Sure... Clinton for President. Clinton the Great Pacifier. Clinton the Junior Senator Carpetbagger *** International Appeaser. Clinton the ... [you insert positive trait that would be loved internationally].

Don't buy it. She is nothing but farsical hypocrosy.


Too much politics. Mr. C should delete my post. Honestly.

 

[parsifal]

Matt

its only political if its not true.....I think your post should stay

 

[Admiral Beez]

A right wing populist has just won in Argentina...

Javier Milei: Argentina has ‘non-negotiable’ sovereignty over Falklands

President-elect says islands belong to his country but that islanders must have say in what happens in future

www.telegraph.co.uk

It's a good thing that Argentina's military has been reduced to essentially worthlessness, as Britain's Royal Navy, itself reduced to two CVAs (sharing thirty odd F-35s), seventeen escorts and two LPDs has never been so small.

 

[SaparotRob]

A right wing populist has just won in Argentina...

Javier Milei: Argentina has ‘non-negotiable’ sovereignty over Falklands

President-elect says islands belong to his country but that islanders must have say in what happens in future

www.telegraph.co.uk

It's a good thing that Argentina's military has been reduced to essentially worthlessness, as Britain's Royal Navy, itself reduced to two CVAs (sharing thirty odd F-35s), seventeen escorts and two LPDs has never been so small.

Sounds from your post that the RN is stronger now. That's a far more capable air group than the last go around.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Sounds from your post that the RN is stronger now. That's a far more capable air group than the last go around.

Ship for ship, certainly. A single Type 45 is more capable than all the Type 42s deployed to the Falklands in 1982. But numbers still matter.

 

[manta22]

I thought I would post a few pictures of when Joline and I visited the Falklands. It is an interesting place and we took a tour conducted by a retired British Sergeant-Major that was excellent. The Falklands are REMOTE!

Stanley Pier

Stanley Church with whalebone arches.

Reindeer

Active minefield

This is a land line telephone that played an important part in the British Advance from Goose Green. The advance was held up due to a lack of intelligence as to the Argentine positions facing them. A British officer noticed an old style telephone in an abandoned farmhouse and cranked its handle. He was stunned when it was answered by a 14 year-old girl. "This is the British Army" he said "Are there any Argentine troops in your area?" That girl, now owns a Michelle's Cafe in Stanley and this phone is relocated there on the wall.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It is an interesting place and we took a tour conducted by a retired British Sergeant-Major that was excellent. The Falklands are REMOTE!

I wonder if the Falklands would feel as remote as those living on Norfolk Island. The latter has better weather and not as far from friendly shores.

Norfolk Island | Welcome to Paradise

Norfolk Island Information for flights accommodation, holiday experiences, weather and events

www.norfolkisland.com.au

 

[manta22]

I wonder if the Falklands would feel as remote as those living on Norfolk Island. The latter has better weather and not as far from friendly shores.

Norfolk Island | Welcome to Paradise

Norfolk Island Information for flights accommodation, holiday experiences, weather and events

www.norfolkisland.com.au

Wasn't that where the Shackleton Expedition wound up?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Wasn't that where the Shackleton Expedition wound up?

He'd wish he'd landed somewhere so lush and warm. No, Shackleton ended up on South Georgia.

You may be thinking of the Australian Antarctic mission, show below.

Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org