Piston engined fighters time was up when the first British jet with an experimental engine went faster than a Spitfire almost from its first flight. eventually reaching 505 MPH with a different engine. The Gloster Meteor and Me 262 were a contemporaries of the P-51D.
Fastest Piston Engined Aircraft of WW2?
- Thread starter Gimmeacannon!
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GregP
Major
No, they weren't "contemporaries," except on a calendar.
The P-51D was a developed, mature fighter with well-known performance.
The Meteors and Me 262s were basically a collection flying prototypes that would, were it not for the war situation, never have been operational otherwise when they first were deployed. The Meteors didn't engage in much combat at all and the Me 262s were never in service in quantities of more than 35 - 50 at any one time, at least according to Adolph Galland, who should know if anybody should have known.
The jets were flying, yes. But they were NEVER anywhere near as mature or decisive as several thousand P-51s were.
Take away the jets and Germany still would have lost the war; take away the P-51s and the outcome is much less certain.
It's kind of like Liberty / Victory ships. They didn't win the war single-handedly, but the war very likely would have been lost without their contribution to it. You can say the same for the Soviet Union. They kept anywhere from 30% to 65%+ of the Luftwaffe occupied after Operation Barbarosa commenced and, had Hitler NOT attacked the Soviet Union, the war in the west might have been won by the Axis side.
The P-51D was a developed, mature fighter with well-known performance.
The Meteors and Me 262s were basically a collection flying prototypes that would, were it not for the war situation, never have been operational otherwise when they first were deployed. The Meteors didn't engage in much combat at all and the Me 262s were never in service in quantities of more than 35 - 50 at any one time, at least according to Adolph Galland, who should know if anybody should have known.
The jets were flying, yes. But they were NEVER anywhere near as mature or decisive as several thousand P-51s were.
Take away the jets and Germany still would have lost the war; take away the P-51s and the outcome is much less certain.
It's kind of like Liberty / Victory ships. They didn't win the war single-handedly, but the war very likely would have been lost without their contribution to it. You can say the same for the Soviet Union. They kept anywhere from 30% to 65%+ of the Luftwaffe occupied after Operation Barbarosa commenced and, had Hitler NOT attacked the Soviet Union, the war in the west might have been won by the Axis side.
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I merely meant introduction into squadron service. All what you say is true, but any P-51 pilot seeing a Meteor or Me 262 knew the way that things were going.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Swept wings probably made using Sto-Wing more difficult than a simple upward fold, on jets. That seems to me to be the most-apparent difference between the two lists of planes you present, outside the F8F. With a Sto-Wing, if you do up-and-over, the sweep of the wing puts the wingtips closer to the deck once they're down.
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The real maximum for Me 262s serving in operational units were about 200 on 9 April 1945, Galland's figure covered only his JV 44, for some reason he liked to forget that there were few other Me 262 fighter units, especially the most important of them all, JG 7. On that day it had about 76 Me 262s. That according to Alfred Price, it is well past midnight here so I didn't bother to check Boehme's JG 7 history.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
There were several units that operated Me262s - aside from JV44 and JG7 mentioned above, there was JG54, NJG11, EJG2, KDO Nowotny and KDO Welter.
In fact it was KG (J) 54, bomber pilots re-trained to fighter pilots, only I./KG (J) 54 became operational and because it was an operational failure the plan was terminated and I./KG (J) 54, II./KG (J) 54 and KG (J) 6 were all disbanded on 11 April 1945, the 2 latter before they became operational.
The problem with the Me 262 and to a lesser extent the Gloster Meteor was poor serviceability, which impacted availability of airframes. As British serviceability improved with operation in the Meteor because of the supply chain at home and improved operational practices, the Me 262's only got worse as the war wore on. This was the major issue that affected it; deliveries forged ahead, but when the Junkers factory producing the engines was bombed, there were lots of airframes sitting about at airfields without engines. The delicate nature of operating the Jumo 004 didn't help available numbers either. Another problem was the quality of o-rings and seals, which deteriorated fast, because they were made from synthetic materials of poorer grade to petrochemical based ones. This affected all branches of the German armed forces.
GregP
Major
Just going by what Galland said and, as I said above, HE should have known if anybody knew.
GregP
Major
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There was only one operational Meteor squadron in WW2. 616. It began to receive Mk.I in July 1944 and Mk.III from mid-Dec. It only ever had about 15 aircraft max at any one time. There were only 20 Mk.I built. It was U.K. based until it sent a detachment of 4 aircraft to the continent in Jan 1945. It was the end of March 1945 before the whole squadron transferred to the Continent. It was renumbered 263 squadron at the end of Aug 1945 and returned to the U.K.
The next Meteor squadrons, all with F.III, were:-
504 began conversion in March 1945, renumbered as 245 in Aug.
74 from May 1945
124 began conversion in July 1945, operational from Oct 1945.
222 from Oct 1945.
It was then into 1946 before squadrons for a second wing began to convert and by which time the De Haviland Vampire was also becoming available.
The next Meteor squadrons, all with F.III, were:-
504 began conversion in March 1945, renumbered as 245 in Aug.
74 from May 1945
124 began conversion in July 1945, operational from Oct 1945.
222 from Oct 1945.
It was then into 1946 before squadrons for a second wing began to convert and by which time the De Haviland Vampire was also becoming available.
9 April 45 LW front-line Me 262 units and their strengths according to Alfred Price in World War II Fighting Jets p. 47
JG 7________________________76 fighters
JV 44________________about 50 fighters
I./KG (J) 54_________________37 fighters
10./NJG 11___________about 9 night-fighters
I./KG 51____________________15 fighter-bombers
II./KG 51____________________6 fighter-bombers
NAGr 6 (ex-Kdo Brauegg)__7 recce
One can get more info on the less well known main Me 262 users from
Boehme, Manfred: JG 7: The World's First Jet Fighter Unit 1944/1945 (1992).
Radtke, Siegfried: Kampfgeschwader 54 von der Ju52 zur Me 262, Eine Chronik nach Kriegstagebüchern, Dokumenten und Berichten 1935-1945, (1990).
and on Meteor e.g. Harkins, Hugh: RAF Meteor Fighters in World War II An Operational Log (2013).
JG 7________________________76 fighters
JV 44________________about 50 fighters
I./KG (J) 54_________________37 fighters
10./NJG 11___________about 9 night-fighters
I./KG 51____________________15 fighter-bombers
II./KG 51____________________6 fighter-bombers
NAGr 6 (ex-Kdo Brauegg)__7 recce
One can get more info on the less well known main Me 262 users from
Boehme, Manfred: JG 7: The World's First Jet Fighter Unit 1944/1945 (1992).
Radtke, Siegfried: Kampfgeschwader 54 von der Ju52 zur Me 262, Eine Chronik nach Kriegstagebüchern, Dokumenten und Berichten 1935-1945, (1990).
and on Meteor e.g. Harkins, Hugh: RAF Meteor Fighters in World War II An Operational Log (2013).
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
What I believe is not mentioned is how many of these aircraft were actually airworthy.
drgondog
Major
Voodoo is close
No, but in Price's later The Last Year of the Luftwaffe may 1944 to May 1945 the following info can be found. The numbers of serviceable Me 262s
JG 7_________________ 53
I./KG (J) 54 __________21
JV 44 ____________ca. 15
10./NJG 11 ___________7
I./KG 51______________11
II./KG 51_______________2
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Adds up to 109
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Voodoo and Rare Bear set the bar: 531mph and 528mph respectively.
Voodoo was just a few years ago, so it may be just a matter of time before someone breaks that record.
Yes but the NAGr 6 information didn't catch my eye, maybe it's in the book but I didn't notice it, so maybe about 5 more.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Is there any info on the cause of the 262 shoot downs, ie by the bombers while attacking, by fighters while attacking the bombers, in ACM with fighters, while landing, etc?
I would be interested to see such numbers, even if only for the 76 sorties & 31 losses on 10 April 1945.
I would be interested to see such numbers, even if only for the 76 sorties & 31 losses on 10 April 1945.
