Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 902
- Feb 16, 2013
the Skua's accounted quite well for themselves against French Hawks and MS.406's over Oran, if I remember correctly
Favourite Naval Fighter
- Thread starter VA5124
- Start date
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
Both planes were useful when there was no aerial opposition. Against Zeroes or F4Fs, not so sure. In American baseball terms, both planes were AAA-league, and never really fought in the major-league.
No slight to them, they did great missions, but if we're talking favourite naval fighters -- which is the thesis of the thread -- one is not even a fighter, and the other has no standing as a "great."
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
A fighter doesn't have to be great to be a favorite.
Admiral Beez
Major
Exactly.
So what? Who asked for greatest fighters?
Did you think when I suggested the Dewoitine D.373 that I thought it was a great carrier fighter? No, I included it because it was innovative; the first single-seat monoplane carrier fighter with folding wings. I still wouldn't want to fight a Mitsubishi A5M, Gloster Sea Gladiator or Grumman F3F in a D.373.
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Shortround6
Major General
Try a Loire 210 float fighter. It did have folding wings, which sometimes folded when they weren't supposed to.
It was innovative when designed but it took the French 6 years from start to issue, at which point it was totally obsolete, in addition to the structural failures.
It was innovative when designed but it took the French 6 years from start to issue, at which point it was totally obsolete, in addition to the structural failures.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
That's fine. I'm a results-oriented guy; my own favorites tend to be the ones which get stuff done. We each have our own yardsticks, and yours is no better nor worse than mine. I'm just pointing out my own standards.
Admiral Beez
Major
Every single seat, monoplane carrier fighter in WW2 got stuff done. Sea Hurricane, Seafire, Wildcat, Hellcat, Corsair, Claude and Zero. That's it, seven to choose from.
Had they finished their carriers we could have added the Bf 109T and Re.2001 OR. Had they moved a little faster we could have added the Sea Fury, Bearcat and Reppū. My favourite piston powered carrier fighter is the Sea Fury.
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
I notice that the Skua isn't listed here.
Admiral Beez
Major
In my list of single seat fighters? Obviously not. But we also have twin seat fighters to look at; Fulmar, Firefly, Skua and (a stretch) Grumman FF.
Had Fairey made a single seat Firefly entering service by early 1943, that would be my favourite. But we're going to trigger our favourite What If whisperer so I'll kibosh that now.
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
And if grasshoppers had tailgunners, birds wouldn't eat 'em.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Admiral Beez
Major
I agree. If it wasn't for the narrow lifts on Ark Royal and the three Illustrious class I'd divert every Merlin from the Fulmar program to the Sea Hurricane.
Post Battle of Britain every serviceable Hurricane should have been shipped out to North Africa, Malaya, Burma, PNG and Australia. Any surviving into 1943 (the Hurricane was produced until July 1944) get a four blade conversion.
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special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,667
- May 13, 2018
The Bf 109T was a carrier fighter. The T for Traeger designates it as a carrier fighter. It was converted for carrier, wing changed for carrier and originally hooked and tested (on land based deck) as was the Avia B.534 Srs.IV. The Avia is my favorite naval fighter. Other carrier fighter aircraft that never arrested on deck include the F2G and Arado Ar 68 and others, however they are still carrier fighters. Simply because there was no carrier for them does not change them from being carrier fighters.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I hadn't heard of the Ar68 being considered for the Kreigsmarine's carriers.
The aircraft considered for the Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strausser were the He50, Ar195, Ar197, Fi167, Ju87, Bf109 and later, the Me155.
Of those, three were navalized:
Fi167, Ju87C(Tr) and the Bf109T.
The later request for updated naval aircraft (Ju87E and Me155) were proposed only, the Ju87E was never built and the Me155 projectn was handed over the Blohm & Voss for a high altitude fighter project.
The aircraft considered for the Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strausser were the He50, Ar195, Ar197, Fi167, Ju87, Bf109 and later, the Me155.
Of those, three were navalized:
Fi167, Ju87C(Tr) and the Bf109T.
The later request for updated naval aircraft (Ju87E and Me155) were proposed only, the Ju87E was never built and the Me155 projectn was handed over the Blohm & Voss for a high altitude fighter project.
Admiral Beez
Major
But no He.100? With its wider track you'd think it was ideal.
Being both 250 mph, twin (initially) mg aircraft, the Arado Ar 197 vs. Sea Gladiator would have made for a good comparison of carrier biplane fighters.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Being designed as a land-based fighter, there would be issues to address such as undercarriage stresses (and it had a weak maingear already) as well as takeoff and landing speed min/max.
Actually it wasn't what the admirals wanted, but it was what they got...
Not really, and yes the RN did ask, but it wasn't the RN's decision, but the Air Ministry's. In fact, senior admirals had been pushing for single-seat fighters around the time the Skua entered service, problem was, the Air Ministry was in charge of aircraft procurement, not the Admiralty, which meant the navy got an aircraft that fulfilled two roles, again due to space on carrier decks. The single-seat fighter on British carriers when the Skua entered service was the Hawker Nimrod. Senior admirals made their feelings known, stating that the Skua would be obsolete by the time it entered service, plumbing for a carrier-based Hurricane in 1937, so the navy DID want single-seat fighters, but, folks, remember that the FAA was a branch of the RAF at that time, not becoming navy controlled until 1938/1939, by which time the Skua/Roc and Fulmar programmes were already underway.
Wouldn't have made any difference. The German ships were well within range of RAF land-based fighters. The problem was one of coordination of the defenses - the Brits had even a contingency plan for if the Germans sailed their ships through the Channel, but signals got mixed once it became aware that's exactly what the Germans were doing and the Swordfish never got their fighter escort. Galland's newly minted Fw 190 squadrons provided escort to the German flotilla. The Swordfish took off from an RAF fighter base, RAF Manston.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Weren't Spitfires stationed at Manston?
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,667
- May 13, 2018
After trying to find data on the Arado, I suspect I was thinking of the Fi 167, however I will still try to find my notes. I have a note book in which I tried to list every aircraft considered for carrier or ever landed on or took off from. I think the Avia B.534 Srs.IV would best the Sea Gladiator & Skua.
