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Why not just use a pair of J47's? They are similar in weight to the J35, they produce more thrust, and have a better SFC.
Many of these sheets can be found here : Standard Aircraft Characteristics Arcive
There is definitely an advantage in having an engine with a high T/W ratio, a low frontal area and diameter, as well as a low specific fuel-consumption.The prototype Penetration fighters (XF-88 and XF-90) used Westinghouse J 34 engines which were much lighter than the Allison/GE J-35. They were also much smaller in diameter.
That's interesting, I thought they did.The J47s have very little difference in SFC over the Allison J35.
Started out as the XT-45 in 1946. I'm not sure when they converted it into a turbojet, but it was effective regardess!The P&W J57 engine used in the B-52 was on the drawing boards in the late 40s, first run in 1950 and first flown in 1952.
There is definitely an advantage in having an engine with a high T/W ratio, a low frontal area and diameter, as well as a low specific fuel-consumption.
The J34 had a good power-to-weight ratio for the time, it had good thrust-to-frontal area and diameter as well, and it's SFC was also quite good. The problem is that many of the penetration fighters were larger than their standard designs and required more power to do the job.
That's interesting, I thought they did.
I didn't know that...Getting good fuel consumption figures is hard as sometimes the fuel consumption (SFC) is not only given at different ratings, full power or normal or cruise, but in some cases one companies "Normal" was another companies "cruise". Add that in the early days (the 40s and early 50s) the SFC was also measured on a test stand with the engine stationary (static) they got no benefit from the pressure rise in the intake (RAM for piston engines).
I didn't know that, but it makes sense...Compression ratio or pressure ratio is one of the main factors in SFC and during the 40s the pressure ratios of the compressors was usually between 4 and 5 to 1. Older and smaller engines sometimes dipping into the 3 to 1 range and only a very few of the newest axial flow engines breaking 5 to 1 for a service engine. At this time the advantage of the axial flow compressor was largely an illusion.
Wait, I thought the J57 started out as the XT-45 which was a twin-spool turboprop, which was then reconfigured to pure-jet configuration instead.The J 57 started as a 6 to 1 ratio in the design process, went to 8 to 1 as a design 2 spool engine then 10 to 1 and finally underwent a total redesign to the "Wasp waist" configuration and the 12.5 to 1 ratio of the first service engines.
I was talking about the engine itself, not the plane...Good thrust to frontal area is good in theory but in practice it tends to fade as you need so much fuel that you can't make the fuselage that skinny anyway.
As I understand it, the roots of the J34 were in the J30: The J30 was designed as an auxiliary powerplant at first, because the US Navy did think turbojets were suitable for operating off a carrier-deck. They eventually had a change of heart and built, what would become, the FH-1 Phantom.The J34 was never intended as a single engine powerplant, it wasn't powerful enough.
The F2H was basically a super Phantom. The Phantom was impressive, but it was only capable of achieving 500 mph in level flight under limited situations, it didn't have cannon armament, and the ejection seat seemed like a good idea. Range was also a problem with early jets, so they decided they'd like more of that too.The idea for the J 34 was usually two engines in the wing roots to get enough power, avoid losses due to long intake and exhaust ducts and leave room in the fuselage for fuel.
I'm not sure I follow you there, I suppose a thinner engine would allow more room for fuel if that's what you are getting at.The XP-88 and XP-90 both carried over 900 gallons of internal fuel so the question of 24in diam or 28in or 37 in dia engines becomes rather moot even if the engines were pushed to the rear or lower rear of the aircraft.
Wasn't it used as an escort briefly?The F2H-2 Banshee had tankage for 789 gallons
I'm not sure I follow you there, I suppose a thinner engine would allow more room for fuel if that's what you are getting at.
Wait, I thought the J57 started out as the XT-45 which was a twin-spool turboprop, which was then reconfigured to pure-jet configuration instead.
Low frontal area got a lot of "play or press" in the 1930s with the V-12 vrs radial engine arguments. A bit over blown as a sitting pilot (even with legs out stretched) has more frontal area than most V-12 engines although he does have to have his head (and shoulders) above the engine. But then some of these aircraft only carried 100-180 gallons of fuel. Once you switched to jets that need hundreds of gallons per engine just to stay in the air for a couple of hours the fuselage became so fat that small differences in diameter are irrelevant.I was talking about the engine itself, not the plane...
As I understand it, the roots of the J34 were in the J30: The J30 was designed as an auxiliary powerplant at first, because the US Navy did think turbojets were suitable for operating off a carrier-deck. They eventually had a change of heart and built, what would become, the FH-1 Phantom.
Since the engine was fairly small at first, they needed six to eight engines: They realized it would be a dumb idea to have a fighter powered by eight engines, so they began bulking up the engine and also let the engine manufacturer have a role in the design process. What previously required six-to-eight engines, now required four, and eventually two.
There had been a thought of putting one large engine in the aircraft (presumably something J34 sized), but McDonnell did not wish to go through with it because they'd already worked out the basic fuselage configuration and the fuel-tank layout.
UnderstoodI believe he was saying that a large fuselage engine would cut into the space allocated for fuel that the twin small engine configuration allowed.
Okay, I gotcha.Shortround6 said:Well, it did but the XT-45 was an evolutionary step. P & W was looking for a replacement for the large piston engine and had decided to develop 3 products, a small turboprop, a large turbo jet and and a large truboprop in 1945. The large turbojet was a single spool 6 to 1 pressure ratio engine (JT3-6) of 7500lbs but it was never run. It morphed into the two spool XT-45 (PT-4 also never run) and then by loosing the propeller section/parts it was turned into the two spool JT3-8 (X-176) which was first run in the late spring/early summer of 1949. This projected started work on the JT3-10 and about the same time as the JT3-8 ran work started on the JT3-A with the wasp waist. Please note that most of these projects overlapped to a considerable extent. Work on the XT-45 didn't stop when the JT3-8 started. It stopped when the JT3-10 started and the work on the JT3-8 didn't stop until over a year after the JT3A was started. The JT3A was the J57.
So the issue was more fineness ratio than actual frontal area itself?Low frontal area got a lot of "play or press" in the 1930s with the V-12 vrs radial engine arguments.
Yeah, but I'm not sure how much. The XP-83 was an interesting design which had many problems, but it did prove the followingOnce you switched to jets that need hundreds of gallons per engine just to stay in the air for a couple of hours the fuselage became so fat that small differences in diameter are irrelevant.
On long range jet fighters it gets worse. For an extreme example
1150 gallons of internal fuel. J33 engines about 50 in diameter. or 13.9 sq ft frontal area each. Changing to J35s of 37.5 in D and 7.7sq ft would obviously have helped some.
The F-80 for example; the F9F actually had an internal load that was like 680-685 with 120 gallons on the tips.On single engine aircraft the fat centrifugal engines could be hidden inside the fuselage of most planes that held around 400 gallons or more of fuel
I figured it just grew from the aux powerplant requirement to the ultimate design whether work was done on them or not.Mostly right but there may be some confusion as to which engine/s were intended for the 6-8 engine layouts. The J30 ( Westinghouse 19A=19in diameter) was giving 1135lbs on the first test run so 8 such engines seems a bit like overkill. Westinghouse did build and run a 9.5in diameter engine (the Yankee 9.5 or J32) which gave around 275lbs of thrust and may have had drawings for an 11.5in and/or another intermediate size.
That makes senseThere was some excess enthusiasm for a short period of time during WW II for jet engines as (over simplified) they thought that such a simple basic engine, only one moving partcould be scaled up or down with relative ease to suit different applications.
DN?Zipper, I was a development test engineer for gas turbines, and later worked on performance simulation software for them. Bearings and seals are major development concerns with gas turbines; they may be easier than reciprocating engines, due to lack of things banging back and forth, but they also tend to operate at high DN numbers.
Sort of the speed of the surfaces in the bearing?
Although that would truly be diameter times Pi times rpm but since Pi is a constant (a 3 in dia shaft would have 50% more speed than a 2in shaft of the bearing surfaces for the same rpm) perhaps the simpler formula is just as effective?
Just guessing so if I am wrong I welcome the correction.
Like gear-ratio...DN is shaft diameter times rpm.
Like gear-ratio...
2. Climb-performance was inferior to the Gloster Meteor, DH Vampire, F-80 Shooting Star, Supermarine Attacker, and Hawker Seahawk.
3. Turning performance, while able to ironically beat out a MiG-15 at low altitude (whether it be due to aerodynamics, strength, or control load), it was generally inferior to the F-80 under most circumstances.
4. While it was used as an escort-fighter, it didn't seem to be very good at it