Fighter Top speed timeline

[FLYBOYJ]

It's my understanding the RAF did not release 100 octane fuel for combat use until May 1940. So during 1939 a Spitfire I in combat condition will be topping out at 353 mph.

However, as has been pointed out the earlier Spitfires were lighter and thus faster:

and topped out at 367 mph.

Just for the record folks, we're splitting hairs here. As stated in earlier threads the 13 mph were talking here will hardly be noticeable in combat and having flown that fast I can tell you that you can barely push the stick forward and pick up 13 mph in a blink.

In these speed comparisons what needs to be examined is how quick said aircraft can accelerate to those top speeds advertised.

My 2 cents - stay away from the stock market....

 

[Shortround6]

As has already been pointed out, those 367mph early model Spitfires were not combat ready and therefore do not meet the criteria for this timeline.

The Early spitfires were as combat ready as anybody else's planes were in mid to fall of 1939.

Nobody having much in the way of armor or self sealing fuel tanks.

The fitting of the bullet proof wind screen was responsible for about a 6mph reduction in top speed because of the disruption in airflow.

If you have information that the Early Spitfires were somehow lacking in in other combat readiness areas (like lacking oxygen equipment or radios) fine but since most Bf 109s didn't have armor or self sealing tanks in 1939 I don't see why the Spitfire should be excluded.

 

[davparlr]

Just for the record folks, we're splitting hairs here. As stated in earlier threads the 13 mph were talking here will hardly be noticeable in combat and having flown that fast I can tell you that you can barely push the stick forward and pick up 13 mph in a blink.

Not to mention all the errors to correct measurements including aircraft trim, manufacturing tolerances, engines performance, wear and tear on the aircraft, engine tolerances, air data system tolerances and error, etc.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Not to mention all the errors to correct measurements including aircraft trim, manufacturing tolerances, engines performance, wear and tear on the aircraft, engine tolerances, air data system tolerances and error, etc.

You know it Dave...

Discussing anything under 20 mph is pissing in the wind IMO. In a dogfight that would hardly be noticeable. Rate of climb, acceleration, turn rates and stall speeds are the factors and a lot of that is factored by pilot skill - in an earlier thread there was discussion about Marine pilots flying F2As who encountered Zeros over Midway. Some of the reports quoted Marine pilots saying that the Zero was capable of speed over 400 mph! We know that wasn't true, but when you have an airplane that can accelerate away from you as if you were standing still, it would seem like a Zero can fly 400 mph!!!

 

[Knegel]

Hi,

20mph(32km/h) at that time was very much. Sure, as long as the pilots all use stupid turnfight tactics, like the F2A pilots over Midway, the speed is not important, but when a Hurri Pilot in his 512km/h plane did try to follow a 560km/h 109E, he would have been happy if his Vmax would have been 545km/h.

Btw, in aircombat the ability to maintain energy(smal drag, big inertia) is same important, or even more important, like to gain energy(acceleration).
Many good fighters had a not that good acceleration(climb), still they was heavy, had a good initial(cruise) speed(much inertia), smal drag and good dive a acceleration. Only in a WWI like combat this was not important.
In early WWII, after tests, the allieds realy thought the Hurri was as good as the 109E, cause they didnt understood what the Luftwaffe tactics was up to.

But anyway, the 109E4 also made 570km/h with the 5 min power setting and the Spitfire, which came to the units made also just around 570km/h, while the Spitfire made this in a little higher altitude, though, here the 109E was just 5 km/h slower, what is realy nothing(normal fluctuation).
In lower altitude the 109E had an advantage with its higher combat power and 5 min power, at take off power(WEP) both planes was roundabout same fast(around 500km/h sea level), but we miss real test datas with this power setting.


Greetings,

Knegel

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi,

20mph(32km/h) at that time was very much. Sure, as long as the pilots all use stupid turnfight tactics, like the F2A pilots over Midway, the speed is not important, but when a Hurri Pilot in his 512km/h plane did try to follow a 560km/h 109E, he would have been happy if his Vmax would have been 545km/h.

Have you ever flown a airplane over 300 mph??? As stated, you can pick up that much speed in a slight nose down configuration in seconds and not even realize it. In close quarters it's irrelevant - that's the point!

As far as "chasing" an airplane that already has a 20 MPH advantage in front of you - it its already out of your firing solution or you don't have the altitude to pick up speed in a dive to intercept, you simply let it go and choose your fight that gives you the advantage.

If you change your scenario and place the Hurricane at a 2 or 3000' altitude advantage, above and behind, a slight dive may take that 512 km/h airspeed and turn it into a brief 580 km/h. Depending on the distance of the chase a firing solution can be achieved.

Btw, in aircombat the ability to maintain energy(smal drag, big inertia) is same important, or even more important, like to gain energy(acceleration).

Ok...

Many good fighters had a not that good acceleration(climb), still they was heavy, had a good initial(cruise) speed(much inertia), smal drag and good dive a acceleration. Only in a WWI like combat this was not important.
In early WWII, after tests, the allieds realy thought the Hurri was as good as the 109E, cause they didnt understood what the Luftwaffe tactics was up to.

During the course of the war, pilots learned how to fight in the vertical as aircraft performance dictated and take advantage of the "yo-yo" which is implied in your first statement

But anyway, the 109E4 also made 570km/h with the 5 min power setting and the Spitfire, which came to the units made also just around 570km/h, while the Spitfire made this in a little higher altitude, though, here the 109E was just 5 km/h slower, what is realy nothing(normal fluctuation).
In lower altitude the 109E had an advantage with its higher combat power and 5 min power, at take off power(WEP) both planes was roundabout same fast(around 500km/h sea level), but we miss real test datas with this power setting.

Greetings,

Knegel

Again, hardly noticeable when you're already in close quarters. The only time one will see any slight speed advantage/ disadvantage is if both planes are at the same altitude, straight and level and depending if the slower or faster aircraft is out front and the distance between them.

 

[Markus]

..., whilst MkII Hurricanes sent to Burma ran like overweight MkI's because of poor fuel quality.

Reminds me of the discussion we had about the seemingly fine performance of Hawks in Burma while the Hurricanes clearly "underperformed". Thank for adding another piece to that puzzle.

 

[Knegel]

Have you ever flown a airplane over 300 mph??? As stated, you can pick up that much speed in a slight nose down configuration in seconds and not even realize it. In close quarters it's irrelevant - that's the point!

As far as "chasing" an airplane that already has a 20 MPH advantage in front of you - it its already out of your firing solution or you don't have the altitude to pick up speed in a dive to intercept, you simply let it go and choose your fight that gives you the advantage.

If you change your scenario and place the Hurricane at a 2 or 3000' altitude advantage, above and behind, a slight dive may take that 512 km/h airspeed and turn it into a brief 580 km/h. Depending on the distance of the chase a firing solution can be achieved.

Ok...

During the course of the war, pilots learned how to fight in the vertical as aircraft performance dictated and take advantage of the "yo-yo" which is implied in your first statement


Again, hardly noticeable when you're already in close quarters. The only time one will see any slight speed advantage/ disadvantage is if both planes are at the same altitude, straight and level and depending if the slower or faster aircraft is out front and the distance between them.

Hi,

if one 109E is 30km/h faster at Vmax, than another 109E, this mean that the drag or the power of one of the both is significant lower/higher.

This will have a impact to all and everything in the combat.

So if we say a 109E had a Vmax of just 550km/h, but the Spitfire had a speed of 580km/h, this also implement a way better relative acceleration of the Spitfire than if both planes get quoted with the same Vmax.

What also mean that if my 109E have a Vmax of 570km/h instead of 550km/h and a Hurri dive down to me, i can be sure that i can outaccelerate the Hurri way faster when i start my dive to escape. And the other way around this would mean that, if Hurri1A would have had a Vmax of 545km/h, a 109E would have had trouble to outdive the Hurri at all.

What i want to say is: A given Vmax is not just Vmax to compare the level speed, its give a hint to the drag/thrust relation and this influence the whole flight.

Greetings,

Knegel

 

[vanir]

Cheers Markus, it stuck in mind because reminding me of often forgotten considerations like theatre infrastructure and logistics when making comparative performance between types, the MkII Hurris in Burma a prime example.

Knegel, I was under the impression Vmax is an engineering limitation on the airframe stresses, not a maximum level speed limitation. A Spit MkI running +6lbs has the same Vmax as one running +12lbs. If it's heavier it'll gain more speed in a dive, lose more in a climb and accelerate worse in level flight (at the upper envelope).

Also it is perfectly feasible (and not uncommon) to have an aircraft with a higher top speed accelerate there more slowly than an aircraft with a lower top speed.

The 109 and Spit are just completely different animals, dude. They perform completely differently and using the successful piloting techniques of one would get you killed in the other, which would include when to punch it and when to back off.
Just on engineering terms (a pilot also plays the role of flight engineer), mid range acceleration on the DB motor is superb, you can bump cruise to combat in a blink. Not so for the Spit. Basically you want to get yourself trimmed for the high speed condition well before entering combat, but do that and keep momentum up and it's a real thoroughbred.

So one accelerates better here, another there. That's how it goes when you're tossing a massive torquer up against a high boost revver. Daimlers pretty much idle around everywhere, Merlins howl. Close your eyes and imagine being in the cockpit, adjusting the Daimler and it's sheer cubic capacity grunts the changes with a growl, then the Merlin, a massive dump of boost sends the reciprocal mass into a spin. It's barely the same thing, like racing naturally aspirated big blocks against high strung jap turbos, but hey because of the overall outputs they get put in the same class too.

 

[Knegel]

Hi,

Vmax = max speed level flight(if no altitude is mentioned, its the absolut max speed at best altitude), not "critical speed" or "terminal speed" or "critical mach".

All what i wrote refer to this meaning of "Vmax" and to the statement that "all below 20mph Vmax speed difference is nothing".

Greetings,

Knegel

 

[FLYBOYJ]

What i want to say is: A given Vmax is not just Vmax to compare the level speed, its give a hint to the drag/thrust relation and this influence the whole flight.

Greetings,

Knegel

Not really - thrust to weight ratio and wing loading - that will determine how quickly an aircraft will accelerate and maneuver. My point? Take a P-40B and compare it to a Zero or an Oscar. You're looking at a 30 - 40 mph difference between these aircraft. Start a turning fight against one of these Japanese aircraft at speeds that benefit them and any Vmax advantage is lost.

Again I stand by my point. Trying to compare aircraft speeds and looking at numbers below 20 mph is splitting hairs. At speeds in excess of 300 mph you can pick up or even lose 15 or 20 mph just by having the aircraft out of trim.

 

[Knegel]

At best height(4200m) the P40C was just around 15mph faster than the early Zero or Oscar, the later japanes fighters was faster.

If someone would mess up the surface of your P40C, so that it fly just 523km/h instead of 555km/h, then even the A6M2 and Ki-43-I would have been faster, then the P40C wouldnt have had any real advantage left.

The 15mph higher Vmax (level speed), always keeping in mind that this was archieved with way more weight and more power than the japanese planes had, indicate that this plane always can get home, to wait for the next possibility to attack with an initial advantage.

Sure you can gain or lose 20mph fast, just by pointing the nose a little up - or downward, but same the enemy plane on your tail will do. Specialy if you want to get away from a better turning plane, but also if you want to catch(stay on the tail until you was able to bring the enemy down) a faster plane, 20mph more or less are like light years.

btw, i dont say the Vmax (level flight) is the only important factor for aircombat, but 20mph(32km/h) is a lot.

Greetings,

knegel

 

[Vincenzo]

32 km/h is less 9 meter for second so you need teens of seconds to go out of weapons range so i don't think it's a lot

 

[FLYBOYJ]

At best height(4200m) the P40C was just around 15mph faster than the early Zero or Oscar, the later japanes fighters was faster.

Depending on the model and altitude its actually more like 30 - 40 mph

If someone would mess up the surface of your P40C, so that it fly just 523km/h instead of 555km/h, then even the A6M2 and Ki-43-I would have been faster, then the P40C wouldnt have had any real advantage left.

"IF" Totally irrelevant

The 15mph higher Vmax (level speed), always keeping in mind that this was archieved with way more weight and more power than the japanese planes had, indicate that this plane always can get home, to wait for the next possibility to attack with an initial advantage

It's going to depend where in the combat situation you're talking about. In close quarters its not going to matter.

Sure you can gain or lose 20mph fast, just by pointing the nose a little up - or downward, but same the enemy plane on your tail will do. Specialy if you want to get away from a better turning plane, but also if you want to catch(stay on the tail until you was able to bring the enemy down) a faster plane, 20mph more or less are like light years.

Disagree - I've flown simulated combat in real aircraft at speeds between 250 and 350 mph and flew in an aircraft with a slight speed disadvantage and you would not notice 20 mph in close quarters. At wingtip to wingtip with a slightly faster plane it's a slow creep depending on the faster plane's ability to accelerate, again power to weight ratio.

btw, i dont say the Vmax (level flight) is the only important factor for aircombat, but 20mph(32km/h) is a lot.

Greetings,

knegel

Again disagree, see above - and I make that statement based on experience.

 

[Vincenzo]

Depending on the model and altitude its actually more like 30 - 40 mph
.

Model 21 and P-40C around 15 mph Model 21 and P-40B around 20 (330 to 345 and 350) best altitude around 15k' for all three

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Model 21 and P-40C around 15 mph Model 21 and P-40B around 20 (330 to 345 and 350) best altitude around 15k' for all three

P-40B had a top speed of 352 mph. The Tomahawk IIA 347 mph. The AM62 Model 21 330 mph, 282 at se level, the Ki-43IA - 308 mph. Again depends on altitude...

 

[Vincenzo]

P-40B had a top speed of 352 mph. The Tomahawk IIA 347 mph. The AM62 Model 21 330 mph, 282 at se level, the Ki-43IA - 308 mph. Again depends on altitude...

so at that altitude there is a 30/40 mph advantage?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

so at that altitude there is a 30/40 mph advantage?

Look at the numbers - A Model 21 Zero is barely making 300 mph at sea level. The P-40 is seeing 350 at altitude. The Oscar's KI-43Ia barely makes 300 at altitude.

 

[Vincenzo]

Look at the numbers - A Model 21 Zero is barely making 300 mph at sea level. The P-40 is seeing 350 at altitude. The Oscar's KI-43Ia barely makes 300 at altitude.

350 mph P-40B or C at SL? what's your source??

 

[FLYBOYJ]

350 mph P-40B or C at SL? what's your source??

Chemistry - Curtiss P-40

They list various models and ref the Hill AFB Museum

Quote from Erik Shilling, former Flying Tiger;

The P-40B was. . .
40 mph faster than the AM6-2 (21) Zero.
50 mph faster than the Hyabusa, or Ki-43.
70 mph faster than the fixed gear I-96.
195 mph faster than the cruise speed of the Ki-21 Sally.
130 mph faster in a dive than any Japanese fighter.
3 times the roll rate of the Zero.
P-40 was 5 mph faster than the Me 109 E-3 at 15,000 feet
P-40 was 9 mph faster than the Spitefire Mk.IA at 15,000 feet
The P-40 could out turn the Me. 109 E-3, and could out dive it.
The P-40 was not the dog that everyone seem to think it was.

The P-40 (Erik Shilling; John Lundstrom; Steven Vincent; CDB100620)

In the book "P-40 Warhawk vs KI-43 Oscar By Carl Molesworth , page 10 It states somethin to the effect "The first production P-40 (serial number 39-156) rolled off the production line March 1940. This airplane along with the next two off the line were put through a series of tests and it was determined its top speed was 357 mph at 15,000 feet."

More....

Curtiss P-40 Warhawk - USA

And

The specifications for the numerous P-40E-1 of 1941 (also Hawk 87A-4 and Kittyhawk IA), which are similar to the entire series of P-40E, K, and M models, are as follows (taken from The Complete Book of Fighters by William Green and Gordon Swanborough): Max speed, 362 mph at 15,000 feet