Florida Learjet Crash 11/1/26: Possible cause? (6 Viewers)

[skyking1]

Nor do I, on a clear day. But it looks like they didn't consider the weather much of a threat, and in hindsight it obviously was.

it was like they had blinders on. At those altitudes the hammers and anvils are not embedded where you can't see them.
It is the high teens and mid 20's when you are minding your own business in the solid clag, and you run into an embedded one.
One night flight as a paying passenger, we were over Texas presumably in the mid 30's in an MD-80 and the clouds were lit from below for miles and miles with ones that were not poking up. Those are the ones that get little planes.
EDIT: For those who do not fly, we were above the convective activity and the ride was smooth as can be.
That kind of thing happens when an over-riding stable air mass caps off the convection.

 

[skyking1]

I'm not sure under the rules they were using. The general requirement is here, but I don't think it's normally construed to apply to radars:

The requirement to have a radar is here, but I'm not sure if it applies to a Learjet 60 under charter:

I don't think those apply in this case, so I don't think it's required. But I've never flown part 135 ops, and don't have a good feel for the regs. I would think in a situation like this they would, even if not required, but again, not my area of expertise.

As I had posted before, operating under 91 there are fewer rules, which is not a good thing in the case of hauling paying passengers who are not 135 charter.
Kobe Bryant was a great example of getting loopholed to death. The aircraft was not current IFR nor the pilot. They had scud run the LA basin successfully for years and that worked until it didn't. He poked into cloud and was not at all ready for it.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I was just watching this stall recovery video. Would commercial pilots be trained outside of sims for this?


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L2CsO-Vu7oc

 

[topspeed]

I've seen the video which shows the Impact crater...

I don't think anyone survived that impact.

BTW...did you see someones "pants" were "drying" on the powerlines on one video after the impact ?

Half a mile away debris went through the roof into a kitchen.

It was "missile" like DeSantis said.

 

[Retattack]

I was just watching this stall recovery video. Would commercial pilots be trained outside of sims for this?


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L2CsO-Vu7oc

Upset prevention and recovery training (UPRT) is relatively recent, and the US requirement for training was established by advisory circular and implemented by 2019.

1-3. PART 121 REQUIREMENTS. All part 121 air carriers, including those who train underan Advanced Qualification Program (AQP), are required to conduct UPRT beginningMarch 12, 2019. The requirement for part 121 pilots to receive upset training is statutorilymandated in Public Law 111-216, Section 208 and the FAA does not have the authority toexempt any part 121 air carrier from this requirement. Air carriers must include UPRT forpilots during• Initial training,• Transition training,• Differences and related aircraft differences training (if differences exist),• Upgrade training,• Requalification training (if applicable), and• Recurrent training.

Note that it's only for part 121, and is designed for large aircraft. There is no requirement for part 135 or 91 ops, though there are companies (like this one) who offer training and claim it's a "best practice." The EASA requires it for appropriate aircraft type ratings and some other training courses. Short answer: in the US, unless it's a regular airline, probably not.

 

[skyking1]

They could see beyond the building tops and decided they could fly over, go direct to destination rather than a circuit around the end. That circuit may have appeared to be huge and many minutes of delay, so they took that chance. We were talking about how far some have gone to get around the end of a line of storms.
A similar pilot lure is called a "sucker hole". You are either VFR over the top of a layer, or scud running under some low clouds and spot a lightening ahead and then some blue sky above or a glimpse of the ground below, and think " I can do that".
Then you get committed into this space and it closes up around you. You can't climb fast enough or the layers of air moving in different directions close the clouds off like a sliding door.
If you're current and competent on the gauges, you might be OK, other than the fact that you are in cloud without a clearance. Get a clearance and learn from it.
On the other hand if you are a fair weather pilot and not ready for instrument flight, you may exit the clouds in pieces.

 

[topspeed]

They could see beyond the building tops and decided they could fly over, go direct to destination rather than a circuit around the end. That circuit may have appeared to be huge and many minutes of delay, so they took that chance. We were talking about how far some have gone to get around the end of a line of storms.
A similar pilot lure is called a "sucker hole". You are either VFR over the top of a layer, or scud running under some low clouds and spot a lightening ahead and then some blue sky above or a glimpse of the ground below, and think " I can do that".
Then you get committed into this space and it closes up around you. You can't climb fast enough or the layers of air moving in different directions close the clouds off like a sliding door.
If you're current and competent on the gauges, you might be OK, other than the fact that you are in cloud without a clearance. Get a clearance and learn from it.
On the other hand if you are a fair weather pilot and not ready for instrument flight, you may exit the clouds in pieces.

This happened in 1931 to Knute Rocke and an airplane full of passenger over Bazaar Kansas.

 

[cvairwerks]

They aren't known as cumulogranite for nothing....

 

[Admiral Beez]

If you're current and competent on the gauges, you might be OK, other than the fact that you are in cloud without a clearance. Get a clearance and learn from it.
On the other hand if you are a fair weather pilot and not ready for instrument flight, you may exit the clouds in pieces.

I don't think I would ever knowingly ride in someone's plane if they were only VFR qualified, no matter the conditions. I imagine myself curiously pointing at an instrument or gauge and asking "what does that do?", only for my pilot to reply, "the heck if I know".

 

[topspeed]

What do you think of this ?

They are blaming the girl....


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN1Kg3tpnvA


I like more his attitude:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LktQRU8OD4Y

 

[Tiger11]

Great answers everyone. Thank you.

Aerial phenomena like microbursts can exert incredible amounts of downward force on aircraft. But is it normal for the horizontal stabilizer to pop off or could that be a sign of a structural or mechanical issue with the aircraft?



That is incredible, thank you.

I'm surprised that a modern aircraft could suffer from this. It is also a bit strange that this would happen as the aircraft was in a climb and entering a storm. Maybe there was a combination of factors, such as the Learjet's tendency to pull downward at high speeds combined with a microburst?

As far as being a "modern" aircraft the Learjet 60 is just one of the latest iterations of an airplane that first flew in the 1960s! Production aircraft are constantly changed and improved over their lifetimes. Some changes are not really improvements, per se, but cause further problems, and have to be further "improved." Case in point - the Boeing 737. The NTSB will certainly look at this history during their investigation of the accident.

 

[skyking1]

I don't think I would ever knowingly ride in someone's plane if they were only VFR qualified, no matter the conditions. I imagine myself curiously pointing at an instrument or gauge and asking "what does that do?", only for my pilot to reply, "the heck if I know".

They know what they do. being able to hand fly gauges is a skill that needs constant practice.

 

[skyking1]

What do you think of this ?

They are blaming the girl....


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN1Kg3tpnvA


I like more his attitude:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LktQRU8OD4Y

I won't give that horse crap a click. Those assholes need a meeting in an alley for that.
The two pilot cockpit is not a democracy and when the SIC is 20 year old with 1000 hours, the relationship is completely asymmetrical. What the captain says goes.
PERIOD.
All decisions good or bad are on him alone, as it really should be in this case. The SIC might have some good ideas and certainly takes loads of things off his plate, but they got where they were because of him. The SIC spots traffic, handles radios, runs the preflight checklists, loads luggage, gets briefings, etc. if the cap is a nice guy they get some landings and takeoffs.
Seriously, any sexist crap just has no place in this discussion.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don't think I would ever knowingly ride in someone's plane if they were only VFR qualified, no matter the conditions. I imagine myself curiously pointing at an instrument or gauge and asking "what does that do?", only for my pilot to reply, "the heck if I know".

Why would a VFR pilot not know what a gauge or instrument does?

The instruments are still used in VFR flight. There is absolutely nothing unsafe about flying VFR with a VFR pilot. Just don't fly into potential IMC conditions.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I won't give that horse crap a click. Those assholes need a meeting in an alley for that.
The two pilot cockpit is not a democracy and when the SIC is 20 year old with 1000 hours, the relationship is completely asymmetrical. What the captain says goes.
PERIOD.
All decisions good or bad are on him alone, as it really should be in this case. The SIC might have some good ideas and certainly takes loads of things off his plate, but they got where they were because of him. The SIC spots traffic, handles radios, runs the preflight checklists, loads luggage, gets briefings, etc. if the cap is a nice guy they get some landings and takeoffs.
Seriously, any sexist crap just has no place in this discussion.

I get so sick and tired of that sexist shit. Women are just as capable of flying than any man.

Besides, as you pointed out, she was not PIC anyhow. There is no way she made the command decisions to put them in this situation.

 

[skyking1]

I get so sick and tired of that sexist shit. Women are just as capable of flying than any man.

Besides, as you pointed out, she was not PIC anyhow. There is no way she made the command decisions to put them in this situation.

topspeed went down about 9 steps with repeating that. crap like that does not exist in a vacuum. It needs regular feeding.

 

[Alan Stevens]

A hurricane is nothing like the convective activity in a thunderstorm cell.

A mature hurricane is usually a much less turbulent environment than a severe convective thunderstorm. Pilots can and do fly over, around, or even through outer portions of tropical systems under the right circumstances, but they avoid thunderstorms whenever possible.

For an aircraft, wind itself is not usually the problem. A jet cruising at 30,000 feet doesn't care much whether the ambient wind is 20 knots or 150 knots because the aircraft moves with the surrounding air mass. What matters is:

A 150-knot jet-stream wind can be perfectly manageable while a powerful thunderstorm cell may be avoided by 20 miles or more.

In aviation accident discussions, people sometimes assume that "hurricane winds" must be the ultimate hazard. In reality, many pilots would probably prefer a region of smooth, strong hurricane-flow aloft to a severe convective cell with intense updrafts, downdrafts, and wind shear. The latter tends to produce the more abrupt and potentially damaging aircraft loads.

 

[Alan Stevens]

The recent Learjet 60 crash near West Palm Beach (WPB), Florida, shares nearly identical aerodynamic and meteorological hallmarks with two historic 1963 incidents: Northwest Orient Flight 705 and United Airlines Flight 746. All three flights serve as textbook examples of high-altitude "jet upsets" triggered by the violent, unforgiving physics of severe thunderstorm cells, in cases where the pilots attempted to increase altitude and fly over the thunderstorms.

In each case, the aircraft encountered extreme convective weather that instantly obliterated standard flight parameters. In 1963, Northwest 705 and United 746 were caught in massive vertical updrafts that forced the heavy passenger jets into uncontrolled, radical climbs. Similarly, just before the disaster near WPB, the Learjet crew requested a climb to escape localized precipitation, stepping directly into severe turbulence and rapid icing.

The defining factor in these upsets is the terrifying transition from an extreme upward draft to a high-speed plunge. United 746 entered a 25,000-foot dive but had enough altitude to recover. Northwest 705 was not as fortunate; the violent combination of structural stress and intense nose-down inputs threw the jet into a near-vertical descent that tore the aircraft apart mid-air over the Florida Everglades.

The NTSB's preliminary findings near WPB mirror the Northwest 705 tragedy with haunting precision. Investigators recovered pieces of the Learjet's tail section and elevator more than a mile away from the main impact crater. This physical evidence strongly indicates that the aircraft suffered an identical mid-air structural failure. Whether caused by extreme atmospheric shifting, severe icing, or the immense aerodynamic loads of pulling out of a high-speed dive, the plane broke apart before it ever hit the ground.

While the aviation industry has recognized and trained for these specific thunderstorm hazards for over 60 years, the WPB disaster proves that when a small jet encounters a violent convective cell, modern technology remains entirely bound by the laws of physics.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Why the optimistic A Admiral Beez ?

Do you know what instruments are required for VFR and which are required for IFR?

And again, why would a VFR pilot no know what his/her instrument gauges do?