Yes but Becker had got the first FuG 202 kill already in August 1941, so even if not yet in widespread production there were some sets and info on its successes around and Soviets were effective to extract info.
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Lichtenstein was historically ordered after the collapse of the Nazi regime in this scenario and was contingent on the RAF night bombing to a large degree. In this scenario the RAF doesn't really develop that same strategy due to the collapse of the Nazi regime before BC starts to develop into a heavy hitting force in 1942. Maybe they will get some work they can use, but ultimately there won't be a lot available after Hitler is killed and the Civil War/power struggle prevents the Germans from really focusing on new developments when their country is falling apart.
Yes but Becker had got the first FuG 202 kill already in August 1941, so even if not yet in widespread production there were some sets and info on its successes around and Soviets were effective to extract info.
Soviet were developing several twin-engine fighters in 1939-41 but the crisis of 41 stopped most projects and only Pe-3 (the fighter version of Pe-2) went to production
Were they failures or did they fall out of favor due to shifting requirements? The MiG 5 seems to be the best of the lot and mainly held back by the cancellation of the AM-37 engines and possibly overall shift in emphasis towards low altitudes along with limited value of the later M-82 powered version. (an AM-38 powered low-alt heavy fighter/attack variant may have been more attractive, but there doesn't seem to have been interest in that and it would be directly competing with Il-2 production -and regardless of potential greater effectiveness and survivability of a higher performance fighter/bomber attack plane with more accurate centerline armament, the Soviets didn't seem to be favoring that direction of development)Weren't most of them stopped because they were failures? Such as the Mig-5
The AM-38 really seems more related to AM 37 development given the timing, power output, weight, and structural reinforcements.Fine points.
The AM 38 was indeed to the AM 35A what basically the Merlin VIII was to the Merlin III - an engine with lower S/C grearing, with most of everything else remaining the same. The difference was a bit lower compression ratio (7:1 down to 6.8:1), and the AM 38 was rated for extra 100 rpm more for take off. The S/C gear ratio for the AM 35A was 14.6:1, for the AM 38 it was 11.05:1.
BTW, the AM 38F was turning 2350 rpm for take off (and emergency; the impeller was of smaller diameter; CR was down to 6:1), 2150 was for the AM 38 and 2050 was for AM 35A.
The most useful german technology captured would be examples and plans that actually fit better with the Soviet's more limited manufacturing capabilities. Some of the German turbine developments might be useful for both jet and turbocharger development, but a lot of that would probably be limited as well. If they captured Heinkel/Ohain's early development work and/or some of their materials that had been moved to museums in Berlin (I believe both the He 178 and some of their prototype engines were moved there) it may have been fairly significant. Using radial turbines in jets or especially turbochargers may have overcome some of the issues the soviets were dealing with. (at least those relating to turbine burnout due to thermal and aerodynamic stresses -radial turbines allow practical use of considerably lower quality metals and scale in size somewhat more easily than axial turbines -all modern automotive turbochargers use radial turbines)Can we at least agree that in terms of radar the Soviets aren't going to capture the later developments and will be stuck trying to make sense of whatever the Germans were working on, as most of the scientists would probably flee west? They were remain at a major disadvantage and maybe would be lucky to get some Wurzburg radars. By this point airborne radar has been developed, probably not even Hohentwiel due to the lack of need without an Atlantic front.
Were they failures or did they fall out of favor due to shifting requirements? The MiG 5 seems to be the best of the lot and mainly held back by the cancellation of the AM-37 engines and possibly overall shift in emphasis towards low altitudes along with limited value of the later M-82 powered version.........I know the AM-37 was abandoned historically, and its existing problems may not have been totally solved without curtailing power output somewhat (at least in the short term), but given the success of the AM-38 (and later AM-42) and overheating apparently being the main problem on the AM-37 there seems to be plenty of room for solving those issues. The AM-37 seems to be to the AM-38 what the AM-39 was to the AM-42, and in both cases the low altitude versions seem to have gotten priority.
Beyond that, a smaller twin using Klimov engines might have been more attractive as an escort fighter. The Ta-3 seems more in that size class, though used rather bulky radial engines and the range cited on wiki isn't very promising. Still, it seems like an aircraft that would be better suited to the Klimov V12s than the large, fairly heavy 14 cylinder M-88 radials it used. (a bit like situation in the Fw 187 discussions regarding using captured Gnome Rhone 14N radials, or a bit worse even)
The AM-38 really seems more related to AM 37 development given the timing, power output, weight, and structural reinforcements.
I'm sure an AM-35 derivative with supercharger configuration similar to the AM-38 would have been possible and allow for a substantial power increase at low altitudes, but not the 1,680 hp the AM38 was producing. (something in the 1,400-1,500 hp range seems more realistic, and should be a good deal lighter than the AM-38 as well, and somewhat lighter than the AM-35)
Were they failures or did they fall out of favor due to shifting requirements? The MiG 5 seems to be the best of the lot and mainly held back by the cancellation of the AM-37 engines and possibly overall shift in emphasis towards low altitudes along with limited value of the later M-82 powered version. (an AM-38 powered low-alt heavy fighter/attack variant may have been more attractive, but there doesn't seem to have been interest in that and it would be directly competing with Il-2 production -and regardless of potential greater effectiveness and survivability of a higher performance fighter/bomber attack plane with more accurate centerline armament, the Soviets didn't seem to be favoring that direction of development)
However, with this scenario avoiding the Soviet evacuation and industrial relocation as well as having greater need for long-range, high altitude fighters as escorts, the MiG twin and its AM-37 engines might have been given much higher priority. A developed AM-37 would also benefit the Pe-8. Same for the AM-39 as a potential followon high altitude engine. (though the AM-35 may have been reasonable to apply to the MiG early on in the interim before production problems with the AM-37 were worked out, and while performance would obviously be lower, you'd at least save some weight with the lighter AM-35As)
Beyond that, a smaller twin using Klimov engines might have been more attractive as an escort fighter. The Ta-3 seems more in that size class, though used rather bulky radial engines and the range cited on wiki isn't very promising. Still, it seems like an aircraft that would be better suited to the Klimov V12s than the large, fairly heavy 14 cylinder M-88 radials it used. (a bit like situation in the Fw 187 discussions regarding using captured Gnome Rhone 14N radials, or a bit worse even)
The AM-38 really seems more related to AM 37 development given the timing, power output, weight, and structural reinforcements.
I'm sure an AM-35 derivative with supercharger configuration similar to the AM-38 would have been possible and allow for a substantial power increase at low altitudes, but not the 1,680 hp the AM38 was producing. (something in the 1,400-1,500 hp range seems more realistic, and should be a good deal lighter than the AM-38 as well, and somewhat lighter than the AM-35)
AFAIK despite serious effort the AM37 just couldn't pan out. Perhaps with captured German engineers they could, but I imagine most them would flee to the west or were already there. The headquarters of BMW and DB were in the West, where the engineering work was done, but Jumo was in Dessau, in the Soviet zone; I imagine they would flee west without the historical destruction of infrastructure and Hitler not around to shoot them for fleeing. The Soviets would get some goodies in the East, but I doubt enough to get to altitude in enough time considering how many issues the Germans had doing so themselves with their country intact. Inheriting the remnants of East Germany probably isn't going to be good enough.
I wasn't expecting the AM-37 to be making power on the level of the AM-38, less in the 1,600 range, more in the 1,400 range. Somewhat like comparing the Merlin 50M to the Merlin 47 (except with an intercooler), while the Merlin 45 would be more like the AM-38 (or 38F) with the AM-35's supercharger gearing with increases to boost and RPM and possibly an inter/aftercooler and power more in the 1,500 hp range.we do not have good information on the AM-37. It seems to be an AM-35 fitted with "boosted supercharging" were is not a very precise term. Higher gear ratio or new supercharger? Sounds like higher pressure not how it was obtained. It was also fitted with a water/radiator (intercooler) in the intake duct. Since only HP ratings appear in most sources without altitudes, or rpm or manifold pressure we are left guessing. Trying to make 1500-1600hp at altitude is a lot harder than making 1500-1600hp at low altitude, The air is compressed more which means it is hotter (less dense) and the added heat throws more heat stress on the engine, add 100 degrees to the intake temperature and the peak combustion temperature goes up 100 degrees and the exhaust temperature goes up 100 degrees. Add in the fact that you may be making 100-150 more Hp in the cylinders in order to drive the supercharger and still get the 1500-1600hp to the crankshaft and cooling problems can be much worse than in a low altitude engine making the same power.
Might higher altitude supercharged Klimov engines be developed if there was a greater need? (with corresponding decrease in take-off power, of course)Soviet 'DB Fw 187'? For altitudes between SL and 5000m, the M-105 will do (1000 CV at 4 km), above that the M-88B would be a better idea (1100 CV at 4 km in 1st S/C gear, but also 1000 CV at 6 km in 2nd S/C gear; all values for no ram).
Wiki has references to the AM-35A using an aftercooler, but I'm not sure of this or how it compares to the AM-37's intercooler if the AM-35 didn't implement one at all.If we want a small fast power boost for the Mikulins, then installing the inter-cooler on the -35A or/and -38 might be good; maybe also rate the AM 35A for higher boost and/or extra 100 rpm. Other options include the medium-altitude gearing, and later the 2-speed gearing; a little decrease of CR for the AM 35A would also come in handy for extra boost.
What about the Bramo portion of BMW or Heinkel and Hirth?The Eastern part of Germany, the ones the Soviets occupied and communised, was then the technological heart of Germany. It had much of the high tech electrical electronics industry, machine tools, aviation, optics, radar, engine and automotive industry. Firms such as Junkers and Argus/Horche(now Audi) came from there. Firms like Daimler Benz and BMW were more the exception.
The Eastern part of Germany, the ones the Soviets occupied and communised, was then the technological heart of Germany. It had much of the high tech electrical electronics industry, machine tools, aviation, optics, radar, engine and automotive industry. Firms such as Junkers and Argus/Horche(now Audi) came from there. Firms like Daimler Benz and BMW were more the exception.
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Might higher altitude supercharged Klimov engines be developed if there was a greater need? (with corresponding decrease in take-off power, of course)
Plus, on an escort fighter, range and fuel efficiency are more important, so the reduced drag of the V-12s may have been worth some performance loss there. (unless the M-88 also had an edge in specific fuel consumption)
Wiki has references to the AM-35A using an aftercooler, but I'm not sure of this or how it compares to the AM-37's intercooler if the AM-35 didn't implement one at all.
What about the Bramo portion of BMW or Heinkel and Hirth?
Yes but Becker had got the first FuG 202 kill already in August 1941, so even if not yet in widespread production there were some sets and info on its successes around and Soviets were effective to extract info.
At least one of Heinkel's major factory complexes was in Marienehe (now part of Rostock), and that would be in the east as well.BRAMO BRandenberg MOtorworks. Brandenberg, east Germany Belin. Previously Siemens and Halske also associated with Siemens Schukert. Siemens itself was Berlin based.
Airborne radar wasn't quite so important for the Luftwaffe. By June 1941 the Luftwaffe has several Wurzburg Riessen in service which with a beam accuracy of 0,2 degrees and range accuracy of 25 meters can guide a night fighter to within 100m or so at 70km away. It was a FLAK radar that was misused. ...
I think one of the arguments being made was that with sufficient application and coordination of ground radar (and reliable radios on night fighters) onboard airborne radar wasn't entirely necessary to be effective.Airborne radar was important. Once the night fighters were outfitted with it, and in decent numbers, they were able to kill same amount of RAF heavies with 300 night fighters as the Flak force (also outfitted with radars by then) was doing with ~3000 of heavy guns (and another thousands of light guns). By 1942, let alone 1943, most of the Flak batteries west of Oder were outfitted with fire control radars.
Airborne radar was important. Once the night fighters were outfitted with it, and in decent numbers, they were able to kill same amount of RAF heavies with 300 night fighters as the Flak force (also outfitted with radars by then) was doing with ~3000 of heavy guns (and another thousands of light guns). By 1942, let alone 1943, most of the Flak batteries west of Oder were outfitted with fire control radars.
I think one of the arguments being made was that with sufficient application and coordination of ground radar (and reliable radios on night fighters) onboard airborne radar wasn't entirely necessary to be effective.
The Belt of Wurzburg Riessen, Himmelbelt or "Sky/Heaven Belt" became insufficient only when Bomber Command began dense bomber streams which would pass through the belt. The belt could only handle so many interceptions.