French SS Troops

[BombTaxi]

I think I broadly agree that many foreign SS volunteers, and perhaps a good number of German SS men joind to fight against Communism as much as they joined to fight for the Nazi regime. There were other factors in oplay as well. The large number of Russian Cossack volunteers should be no surprise to anyone with a grasp of Russian history. The Cossacks had long seen the St Pertersburg and Moscow governments as opressors and invaders, and had fough on the White side during the Civil War to try to escape Bolshevik rule. The enemy of their enemy being theior friend, it is hardly surprising that many joined the SS, misguided as it may have been. Perhaps they hoped that after Stalin was defeated, Hitler would allow them a free country...

I also agree that too much discussion of the SS as a military force is hijacked by the political context in which they fought, and perhaps the same might be said about the NKVD too. But a purely military discussion of the SS is always difficult, as I think much of their bravery and savagery was spurred on by a true hatred of Russian Communism...

 

[Lucky13]

Sound!

 

[Deanimator]

is there a book about the subject?.

It's not the subject, but I believe that Antony Beevor's book on the fall of Berlin mentions at least in passing, the foreign SS units, in particular, Charlemagne.

 

[Amsel]

Great book. I really enjoyed The Fall of Berlin 1945 by Beevor.

 

[Deanimator]

Great book. I really enjoyed The Fall of Berlin 1945 by Beevor.

As the Brits say, Beevor really "puts the boot in" in his description of Himmler's dilettantish excursion into battlefield command. One dose of Soviet shelling and he "took ill" never to exercise "combat" command again.

 

[comiso90]

Adilettantish excursion into battlefield command. One dose of Soviet shelling and he "took ill" never to exercise "combat" command again.

i wasnt aware Himmler went to a battlefield command. i guess he was better at designing intimidating uniforms

 

[Amsel]

In the end while his SS were hanging deserters, Himmler was trying to make a deal with the Allies to replace Hitler. The Allies were not real interested.

In the meantime Sturmbataillon Charlemagne was fighting for their lives.

 

[Lucky13]

Didn't the 5 SS Division Wiking do a fighting withdrawal through Czechoslovakia and continue to Fürstenfeld, Austria and surrender there to the American forces on 9th of May?

The breakout down Freidrichstrasse turned into a disorganized mob, which was quickly dispatched by Soviet armoured attacks. The Nordland's last SdKfz 250 was knocked out by a Soviet soldier with a captured German Panzerfaust. Reg, SS920915?

 

[Deanimator]

Didn't the 5 SS Division Wiking do a fighting withdrawal through Czechoslovakia and continue to Fürstenfeld, Austria and surrender there to the American forces on 9th of May?

The breakout down Freidrichstrasse turned into a disorganized mob, which was quickly dispatched by Soviet armoured attacks. The Nordland's last SdKfz 250 was knocked out by a Soviet soldier with a captured German Panzerfaust. Reg, SS920915?

Isn't this referenced in "The Fall of Berlin"?

 

[zoul310]

It's indeed always a tuff and sensitive subject because it's almost impossible to remove political and emotional context.
France never really recovered from the human losses of WW1. From there a very divided country appeared on the political map which brought almost civil war. A huge part of the 1940 collapse comes from that. Some people wished to loose to germany to not see France become communist. Some didn't want to fight.
France was a mess.

Vichy government was openly collaborative and wanted more. Vichy wanted to be part of the Axis but Germany never allowed it. And so many of Charlemagne enrolled to fight communism. As early as 1942 the "LVF" (Legion of French Volunters) regiment was fighting on the eastern front.

The bombing of the french navy in Mers El Kebir by the British was used heavily by the Vichy propaganda to try to make the switch.

Some decided to put their political views behind as long as France was occupied and fight against the invader. The Gaullist had that simple idea and the "Free French" were created.

One of the most amazing unit was "Normandie Niemen" Fighter Regiment who fought in Russia. Many french aces came from this unit. (Albert, De La Poype, Tulasne, etc)

There is no surprise with general Leclerc story. Most of Charlemagne survivors were put on trial and sentenced to death.

It was a political war mixed with the actual war in France.
Not simple, not easy to digest.

G.

 

[Amsel]

Great info, thanks. And welcome.

 

[zoul310]

Thank you Amsel

 

[Marcel]

Anytime a thread starts about the SS it gets sidetracked. It would be interesting to learn more about them without the political posts about how evil they were etc, etc.

I think for Europeans (from former occupied countries) it's very difficult to discuss objectively the SS. WW2 brought the best, but also certainly the worst of the population to the surface. I for instance had a grandfather who was almost killed while playing a part in the resistance and I had an uncle who was with the SS. This leads to uneasiness and an urge to make a stand against the Nazi's I think. The SS was the political army of the Nazi's where most collaborators joined, so it'll always cause a strong emotional reaction with many of my fellow Europeans.

 

[Amsel]

The SS were pretty vicious, and that is understandable, Marcel. Americans are not fond of them either. An SS member didn't want to be caught in uniform by the Americans on the Western Front because they were shot on sight. I was just hoping for a historical conversation, but its not too big of a deal.

 

[Marcel]

The SS were pretty vicious, and that is understandable, Marcel. Americans are not fond of them either. An SS member didn't want to be caught in uniform by the Americans on the Western Front because they were shot on sight. I was just hoping for a historical conversation, but its not too big of a deal.

I understand. My point is: it's more personal to some (if not many) Europeans. It certainly is for me.

 

[Negative Creep]

I think you are brought up to see the SS as simply pure evil, like baddies in a film. It's always very strange to see them wirting letters home to their families saying how much they love them, then describing wiping out all the Jews in a village. Of course you do have to tread very carefully around such matters, as they could be easily taken as being sympathetic. In a way you have to admire the conviction (but NOT the philosophy or actions) of the foreign SS men defending Berlin. They had no reason to be there and knew full well what awaited them if captured