German AWACS WW2?

Glider · Jan 19, 2011

Milosh said:
The British AWACs were used defensively to intercept He111s from Holland launching V1s.

My understanding was that it was tried but didn't work mainly due to the very limited radar range that was achieved.

Going back to the original idea could it be that the He177 had the radar and the single seaters a receiver which would give them the direction to any possible target?

Just a thought

timshatz · Jan 19, 2011

Glider said:
My understanding was that it was tried but didn't work mainly due to the very limited radar range that was achieved.

Going back to the original idea could it be that the He177 had the radar and the single seaters a receiver which would give them the direction to any possible target?

Just a thought

Could be on to something Glider. If you put a four engined bomber into the bomber stream and it sent out either tracking information or was used as a reflector, I could see the perspective. The Germans did something similar with 8th AF Raids using a twin engined bomber as a tracker, sitting off to the side.

Put a heavy bomber above the stream and have it keep track of the bombers, directing both night fighters and day fighters to the stream.

Might work. Worth trying.

davebender · Jan 19, 2011

Put a heavy bomber above the stream and have it keep track of the bombers

Is that worth the effort? Historically the Luftwaffe had little trouble finding RAF bomber streams by employing receivers which homed in on bomber radio and radar transmissions. The Luftwaffe also had considerable success simply by plotting the cloud of Window being discharged by bombers in the stream.

Milosh · Jan 19, 2011

Shortround6 said:
Were they really AWACS aircraft or were they AEW?

AEW= Airborne Early Warning

It would lack the "control" function.

Am going by the article norab mentioned in his post.

This is a reduction of a scan of the article.

pbfoot · Jan 19, 2011

timshatz said:
Put a heavy bomber above the stream and have it keep track of the bombers, directing both night fighters and day fighters to the stream.

Might work. Worth trying.

I would think underneath and the radar would be servoed up and totally negate groind clutter

timshatz · Jan 20, 2011

pbfoot said:
I would think underneath and the radar would be servoed up and totally negate groind clutter

Another idea. I was thinking the radar wasn't onboard. They were tracking using visual/radar emission.

But you could probably do it either above or below. Below has the added advantage of seeing them against the starlit sky. Probably not a great advantage, but another one to think of.

Was thinking of something last night in this line. Have a lot of snow around where I live and there's (close to) full moon. Given the amount of reflected light and a full moon, would Bomber Command fly on nights like that? Seems to just about be murder to go into a heavily defended Ruhr with all that ambient light. Think something similar happened to BC in 1944 and they lost 100+ bombers.

jamierd · Jan 21, 2011

davebender said:
Of course.

Per Massie (Castles of Steel) Admiral Scheer received the below intelligence messages on the mornng of 31 May 1915. Taken together they paint an unmistakable picture that the RN Grand Fleet and BCs were at sea.

Message 1.
U-32 sighted two British dreadnoughts, two cruisers and several destroyers off May Island, 60 miles east of Firth of Forth.

Message 2.
U-66 reported 8 British battleships accompanied by cruisers and destroyers 60 miles east of Cromarty on an easterly course.

Message 3.
W/T Command 6 reported intercepting British wireless messages indicating that two British dreadnoughts or groups of dreadnoughts (call signs did not make clear) had left Scapa Flow.

Makes me wonder what Admiral Scheer hoped to accomplish (besides getting his butt kicked by superior British naval forces).

if Admiral Sheer was looking for said ships 60 miles east of the firth of forth he is a long way out the isle of may is 5 miles east of the firth of forth might explain why he got his butt kicked

JoeB · Jan 21, 2011

Glider said:
I think most of us are aware that the RAF tried a couple of times to develop a WW2 AWACS aircraft firstly with a Wellington and secondly with a B24.

However I have been reading Confounding the Reich a book on the night fighter war of 100 Group over Germany. In the book it makes only a passing reference to a He177 that was shot down while acting as an Illumnator when operating with Me 109 and FW190 aircraft.

I can only guess that it was an attempt at an AWACS as the concept of a flying searchlight was obsolete.

The answer to this was given indirectly before, but the He177 was surely involved in flare dropping in support of 'Wilde Sau' tactics by the single engine a/c mentioned, where they attacked at night visually, using light from the ground (the fires started by the British bombers) silhouetting the bombers, searchlights 'coning' particular bombers, and sometimes, parachute flares dropped from above the bomber stream by German bombers. It doesn't refer to 'illumination' by radar.

Besides British concepts, the USN pursued AEW a/c with high priority after the emergence of the kamikaze threat in late 1944, under Project Cadillac. The first carrier group with such a/c, TBM-3W's fitted with APS-20 radars, was in Hawaii the final stages of work up for deployment when the war ended.

Joe

Glider · Jan 22, 2011

I hadn't thought about that and you certainly could be right.

Glider · Jan 23, 2011

Just to confirm that from what I have found Joe B was on the nose when he mentioned the He 177 bombers dropping flares to assist the single engined fighters find the bombers.

Apologies to one and all if I got anyone excited with a wild idea.

German AWACS WW2?

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Glider

Major

timshatz

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davebender

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Milosh

Senior Master Sergeant

pbfoot

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timshatz

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jamierd

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JoeB

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Glider

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Glider

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