German Weaponology

[Soren]

An Excellent must see documentary on the Waffen SS and the weapons of the German army!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXvWOCVkD7U

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P_-8spMsjQ

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kutTWIGqtvo

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RicFXjVXhQE

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50iouga7Ri8

 

[glen]

LOL，how old are you Soren？ When I was in 20s I was fond of german weapons, but not now. The best weapons in WWII were usally not designed/produced by German.

MG42 is from a Polish design. The best submechinegun is from Filand. US Infrared weapons were used in Okinawa in 1945.The best rifle is US M1 Garand. The best Light machine guns was made in Czech. The best Battle ship is Yamato class. The best piston fighter is Spitfire from British.The best Pistol is colt M1911. The best 20mm Aviation cannon is british hispano/soviet b20. The best Rockets is "Katyusha". The best bomber is US B29....... too many to recall.

I suggest you to study how British and US helped Hitler with money and technology in 1930s. Anyway, the center of sicience/technology of the world was in United States BEFORE WWII.

 

[plan_D]

I would be quick to agree that the U.S was the centre of industrial technology, but nothing else. Nuclear technology, for example, how far was the U.S into researching it until 1939? Aviation studies, how far was the U.S into swept wing research, turbojet study and rocket propulsion?

I'll never agree that everything that was in the German war machine was the best to see service, but I do have to point out that your list is a matter of opinion. For example, you smash the point down that the best piston fighter was the British Spitfire; I would have to agree but I know there are plenty people on this site that could argue in favour of the Corsair, Fw 190 or Ta 152 and good arguments they would be too.

And I'm sure Soren could turn around and simply say; the best jet fighter was the Me 262, the only assault rifle (and therefore the best) was the Stg.44, the leading rocket and ramjet nation was Germany, the best light tank was German, the best medium tank was German, the best heavy tank was German, the best super-heavy tank was German. The best military issue underpants were German... the best stoves were German.

I'm only slightly having a go because Soren has posted a documentary and he didn't claim that everything in the Wehrmacht was the best in the world. So I was quite confused when you came out with, simply, a pathetic rant. And then had to add that the U.S. was the best before World War II.

Everyone had their strengths in World War II; unfortunately for the Allies and the Germans were a great strength. No matter which way you flip the coin - Germany held off the great powers of the world for six years... they lost four million soldiers...and still came out of a massive European power 60 years later. That's SOME strength worthy of any lowly peasants respect - so they've got mine !

 

[Soren]

As usual you're completely wrong glen.

Germany was the leader in technology since way before WW2, and continued to be so until the end of WW2 after which it still continued to be the leader in many areas right up till today.

Ever heard of the University of Göttingen and the labs there ? Did you know that most of the great mathematicians phycisist of the 19 - 20 th century went there? Or how about the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, Max Planck Institute etc etc ? I guess you never heard of these either.

Laboratory of Göttingen was the main center of theoretical and mathematical aerodynamics and fluid dynamics research from soon after 1904 and to the end of WW2, completely leading the way throughout WW2.

Since 1904 and throughout WW2 the Germans were ahead in aerodynamics, esp. high speed aerodynamics, Adolf Busemann Ludwig Prandtl being responsibe for the greatest advances in areodynamics in history. Ludwig Prandtl, the farther of modern aerodynamics, coining the term boundary layer and founding modern mathematical aerodynamics. Prandtl was the absolute undisputed leader in the field of aerodynamics/fluid dynamics throughout the war.

Adolf Busemann was the foremost expert in supersonic aerodynamics, and with the help of Prandtl he was the first to discover establish the characteristics, advantages disadvantages of the swepped wing. Hence why the Germans were deploying and designing swepped winged jet a/c during WW2, long before anyone else. The famous German designer Hans Multhopp was also an expert in this area.

Hence why the German were fielding the best fighters and most advanced a/c of WW2, the below examples being completely unrivalled:

Me-262A-1a
Ta-152H C
He-162A-2
FW-190 D-12 13
Ar-234B-2
He-277
Ju-388


The German advances in aerodynamics was also the reason why they were the leaders in ballistics research and designs, designing producing the best projectiles of WW2. German rifles, machineguns etc etc were firing heavy boattailed spitzer projectiles (Designation: FMJ-BT) with very high Ballistic Coefficients, and many other specialized types, while nearly all other countries, including the US, still used flat based Spitzer bullets from the first world war. Spitzer bullets (Sharp pointed bullet) are a German/French design btw and were revolutionary in WW1.

German snipers could because of their better and more accurate projectiles also hit their targets more precisely at longer ranges than Allied snipers, a great tactical advantage on he open battlefield.

The Germans were also the leaders in rocket science, being the first to deploy self guided ballsitic missiles and air to air rockets.

Germany was also the leader in radar infrared techonology, being the first to deploy infrared equipment on smallarms AFV's, a good number of Pzkpfw.V Panthers being equipped with this in late 44 on the western front and enjoying amazing success.

And like we all know the Germans were also waay ahead throughout the war when it came to designing and building tanks, fielding the unrivalled Pzkpfw. VI Ausf.B King Tiger Pzkpfw. V Panther and their subvariants.

On top of this the Germans were also the undisputed leaders in smallarms gun design, designing building the best most powerful guns of WW2, most notably the unrivalled examples below:

Smallarms
MG-42, the best machinegun of WW2 and all time.
MG-34, the second best machine gun of WW2.
FG-42, one of the most advanced smallarms of WW2, a supurb LMG.
StG.44, THE best smallarm of WW2.
M98, the best bolt action rifle of all time.

Aircraft armament
30mm Mk-108
30mm Mk-103
20mm MG151/20
15mm MG151

Big guns
128mm KwK/PaK 44 L/55 L/61, the most powerful AT gun of WW2.
88mm KwK/PaK 43 L/71, the best tank AT gun of WW2.
75mm KwK/PaK 42 L/70, the second best tank gun of WW2.
170mm K-18, the best heavy artillery piece of WW2.

And the list goes on....

Furtermore the Germans were producing the best most precise optics in the world, Zeiss Dialytan developing and providing optics for tanks, smallarms, guns, U-boats etc etc of unrivalled quality precision.


As for the MG-42, there's nothing Polish about it glen, it was designed by German Dr. Werner Grüner and produced by Mauser AG Werke Borsigwalde, Gustloff-Werke in Suhl, Grossfuss in Döbeln, Maget in Berlin and Steyr in Vienna.

The MG-34 was designed by German Heinrich Vollmer, who also designed the MP-40 SMG.

And the StG.44 was designed by German Hugo Schmeisser.



Now finally I thought I had already asked you not to fabricate stuff anymore glen, so why do you continue doing so ??

 

[Soren]

The Germans weren't the best at everything like Plan_D said, however in most areas they were ahead, but not always by much.

This didn't matter much though seeing that Germany was facing nearly the entire world, and the Allies certainly werent poorly equipped either!

The Germans might have designed and produced the best machines weapons of WW2, but they didn't produce enough of them. Infact even in 1944 most German infantry were still equipped with bolt action rifles, which eventhough exceptional for long range work, just wasn't the ideal weapon for anything else. The US Garand was more versatile because of its higher RoF, and it was produced in MASSIVE numbers!

As for the best fighter of WW2, well nothing the Allies built could compete with the Ta-152H or Me-262A1a, however again too few were built and fuel was critically low.

 

[Thorlifter]

Anyway, the center of sicience/technology of the world was in United States BEFORE WWII.

WHAT???? Are you kidding?

I suggest you get a book called Hitler's Scientist. It, in extreme detail, documents how Germany, not the U.S. was the "center of all sciences" (aeronautics, mathematics, chemistry, etc) of any country from the late 1800's to WW2.

Sorry to tell you, but your quote to completely wrong........and that's not my opinion. That's a fact.

 

[Njaco]

So tell me again why was the US and Russia fighting over German scientists after the war?

 

[Konigstiger205]

So tell me again why was the US and Russia fighting over German scientists after the war?

They knew good jokes

 

[Thorlifter]

So tell me again why was the US and Russia fighting over German scientists after the war?

The U.S. and Russia didn't have a good bratwurst sauerkraut recipe.

 

[Njaco]

Well I for one, know the Germans were experts at gliders. Hardy Kruger said so in that old movie "Flight of the Phoenix". That was like a documentary, right?

 

[wilbur1]

No that was a time/life show, i just bought the whole set for 29.95 a month

 

[SoD Stitch]

Well said, Soren . . . . there's a reason half the countries in Europe COPIED WWII German designs directly after the War; look at the Avia S-92, a direct copy of the ME 262; the FRG's MG-1, MG-2 the modern-day MG-3 are almost EXACT copies of the MG42 (though slightly different in caliber); most post-WWII armored car designs borrowed ideas from Germany's SdKfz. 234-series of 8-wheel armored cars. I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

[Juha]

Soren
even if I agree that many German weapons were top class and generally the level of German equipment was very good but still.
What made He-277 and Ju-388 completely unrivalled? Surely not effectiveness in combat.
And Ta-152? Eric Brown's assessment of H-1 was "In my view, Ta 152H was every bit as good as any of its Allied piston-engined counterparts and, from some aspects, better than most" (source AE No 1 p. 112) so very good plane but not necessarily completely unrivalled.

"a good number of Pzkpfw.V Panthers being equipped with this in late 44 on the western front and enjoying amazing success." Any source to back up that, I mean something that was checked against Allied records, not some Internet stories.

Why the leader in radar technology was forced to copy Allied radar systems, Rotterdam gerät etc?

Were German snipers more efficient than for example Soviet snipers?

"unrivalled Pzkpfw. VI Ausf.B King Tiger Pzkpfw. V Panther and their subvariants."
IMHO Panther was the greatest disappointment of German tanks when committed into battle in summer 43. In one month Panther Brigade's strength dropped from 200, even with 12 replacement Panthers, to 9 operational plus 47 in repairs and 156 total loss. And there has been 2 weeks lull before Soviet attack on Aug 5th, so there was time for repairs and maintenantance And it was 1943 when the Germans really needed good medium tank, 1944 war was already lost.

What makes MG151 unrivalled? It was a good gun but was it more efficient than Hispano Mk V or Soviet B-20?

Juha

 

[Konigstiger205]

Well I don't think that the Panther was "the greatest disappointment"..."The Panther's excellent combination of firepower, mobility, and protection served as a benchmark for other nations' late war and immediate post-war tank designs and it is frequently regarded (along with the Soviet T-34-85) as the best tank design of World War II."That definitely sounds like the definition of disappointment...did you think for an instant that those losses may be attributed to various causes not necessarily proving that the Panther was a bad tank...
I guess you read probably this and memorized only what you liked..."The Panther first saw action at Kursk on July 5, 1943. Early tanks were plagued with mechanical problems: the track and suspension often broke, and the engine was dangerously prone to overheating and bursting into flames. At Kursk, more Panthers were disabled by their own failings than by enemy action. For example, the XLVIII Panzer Corps reported on July 10, 1943, that they had 38 Panthers operational and 131 awaiting repair, out of about 200 they had started with on July 5. Heinz Guderian, who had not wanted Hitler to order them into combat so soon, later remarked about the early Panther's performance in the battle: "they burnt too easily, the fuel and oil systems were insufficiently protected, and the crews were lost due to lack of training." Guderian also stated, however, that the firepower and frontal armor were good. While many of the Panthers used at Kursk were damaged or suffered from mechanical difficulties, only a small number were lost for good and the tanks also achieved success, destroying 263 Soviet tanks."

 

[Soren]

Juha,

The Ta-152H was faster, more maneuverable, climbed faster and had a MUCH higher service ceiling than ANY of the late war Allied fighters. The Ta-152H is as many experts agree, THE best piston engined fighter of WW2, completely unrivalled.

The Pzkpfw. V Panther performed poorly in terms of reliability at the Battle of Kursk as it was rushed into service before all its teething problems had been fully addressed. However the Ausf.D quickly solved the reliability issues and from that point on the Panther was a VERY reliable tank, esp. considering the conditions in which it operated. The Panther was quite simply the best tank of WW2.

As for the Tiger Ausf.E B, well the Allies failed to produce anything that impressive, the Tiger Ausf.E still easily handling the new Soviet IS-2's in 44 45 as it did the T-34 from 42 and onwards. And the Tiger Ausf.B was unrivalled in firepower armour protection, and was despite what some say a reliable tank if given proper maintenance. Problem though was that there was nearly no fuel to go around to power these Monsters in 1944, and spare parts were few as-well.

As for Soviet snipers, well their success was in Urban areas where distances weren't very long, there rarely being more than 200m to the target. The Soviet snipers however were at a big disadvantage on the very long distances on the Russian plains, which is where the German Snipers shined.

The German Scharfschützen were best trained equipped in the world, Germany being the first nation to establish specialized sniper schools (Before the war), and their tactics were so efficient that todays US Sniper training program is a close copy of the WW2 German program used to train the Sharfschützen. The German snipers were also armed with the most accurate sniperrifle of WW2, the Karabiner 98k, which with its far superior optics and the sS Patrone was deadly accurate out beyond 800m, and with the V-patronen (V for Verbessert, in english "Improved"), issued to the LW, the effective range was beyond 1,000m. Read Peter Senich's excellent book on the subject for further information, its a great book, worth every penny!



As for the MG-151, check out the weight, MV and RoF of the gun Juha, a very efficient gun for its caliber. The 20mm MG-151/20 was even better, being just as light and firing the devastating minen rounds was one of most lethal fighter armaments of WW2.

 

[Juha]

Köningstiger
Panther was not a bad tank from Ausf. A onwards, but IMHO the first model Ausf D was, it was usually too unreliable. My figures were for Aug 8th, ie when Germans were forced to fast retreat and end result was massive total losses for Panthers. Pz IVs and Tigers managed better. But as I wrote, it was 1943 when war was irreversively lost for Germany and so it was 1943 when Germans would have needed reliable Panthers. And the 263 destroyed tanks is only claim, difficult to verify. And from Germans reports one see that Panther easily burn when hit.

Soren
I gave one expert who didn't agree to your claim on Ta 152, can you name some of those many experts who agree.

On Panther's reliability, why Guderian demanded urgent action to improve Panther's final drive in late summer 44 (source Jentz's Panzertruppen p. 100) and Panzerkomission complained on weak final drive in Jan 45 if Panther was VERY reliable from Ausf D onwards ie from first version onwards?

On Russian snipers, IMHO Finns thought they were dangerous also over 200m distance.

On MG151 and 151/20, I recommended Williams' Gustin's Flying Guns, look the Appendix 6 Fighter Gun Effectiveness and surprise surprise MK 108 is best but B-20 is second and Hispano V third (efficiency 9.7, 6.8 and 5.7 respectedly) only then MG151/20 and MK 103, both 4.9. Parametres used are ROF, cartridge destructiveness and gun weight.

Juha

 

[Njaco]

One other factor to consider when comparing is sabotage. Because Germany at many times used foreign and slave labor, the incidents for sabotage were high throughout the military industry. You can have the best whatever on the planet but it ain't gonna go if somebody is gumming up the works.

 

[Soren]

Soren
I gave one expert who didn't agree to your claim on Ta 152, can you name some of those many experts who agree.

What Brown said was that the Ta-152 was better than Allied fighters Juha.

But yes, I can easily name one more; Willi Reschke. Want more ?

You could also ask the experts on this board like Erich ? He's expressed more than once that the Ta-152H was the ultimate prop job of WW2.

On Panther's reliability, why Guderian demanded urgent action to improve Panther's final drive in late summer 44 (source Jentz's Panzertruppen p. 100) and Panzerkomission complained on weak final drive in Jan 45 if Panther was VERY reliable from Ausf D onwards ie from first version onwards?

I actually meant the Ausf.A, but yes most of the teething problems were solved with this version, and the tank proved very reliable considering its working inviroment.

As for Guderians request and the Panzerkomission, well Juha do you have any idea under which conditions these tanks had to work by 44? The maintenance they recieved, availability of spare parts ? And are you aware of the fact that they were often at the mercy of inexperienced drivers ?

Had a Sherman been subjected to the above I'm sure equal requests complaints would've been sent forth.

On Russian snipers, IMHO Finns thought they were dangerous also over 200m distance.

The Finns used a different rifle based on the Mosin Nagant but with a heavier barrel and other type ammunition. This rifle was the M-39. And btw, the Finnish were accurate with these rifles at pretty long range and with open sights. But still the distances were rarely above 300m, something which the top Finnish Sniper remarked IIRC.

On MG151 and 151/20, I recommended Williams' Gustin's Flying Guns, look the Appendix 6 Fighter Gun Effectiveness and surprise surprise MK 108 is best but B-20 is second and Hispano V third (efficiency 9.7, 6.8 and 5.7 respectedly) only then MG151/20 and MK 103, both 4.9. Parametres used are ROF, cartridge destructiveness and gun weight.

I strongly disagree.

The thing about the MG151/20 is it fires the HE(M) Minen round, a round which is over TWICE as devastating as those fired by the B-20 Hispano V. So the MG151/20 was a far more devastating armament Juha.

Take a look here: WORLD WAR 2 FIGHTER GUN EFFECTIVENESS

Note the damage of a single HE(M) round, nevermind the Power of the gun as that is based on Momentum and is rather irrelevant as Tony points out himself.

Another thing about the MG151 MG151/20 is that they were immune to jamming.

 

[glen]

Germany was the leader in technology since way before WW2, and continued to be so until the end of WW2 after which it still continued to be the leader in many areas right up till today.

And like we all know the Germans were also waay ahead throughout the war when it came to designing and building tanks, fielding the unrivalled Pzkpfw. VI Ausf.B King Tiger Pzkpfw. V Panther and their subvariants.

The Ta-152H was faster, more maneuverable, climbed faster and had a MUCH higher service ceiling than ANY of the late war Allied fighters. The Ta-152H is as many experts agree, THE best piston engined fighter of WW2, completely unrivalled.
......

-------Soren

Soren's bias is obvious. I am familiar with all the german weapons raised by him. However, I found that he is quite unconversant with allied weaponology. It will cost us a lot of time in arguing "which weapon is the best" issues. OK, now let's compare german and allied weapons from Ta152H. Since soren said T152H is the best piston fighter in WWII, completely unrivalled! Soren, please tell me why Ta152 is superior to Spitfire MK 21/14 and F4U-4 P51H, P47M/N...

1) Top speed: Spitfire MK21 -----732km/h@7800m

Spitfire Mk 21 Performance Testing

Spitfire MK14----720km/h@7800m

Spitfire Mk XIV Performance Testing

P51H----788km/h Note that the first P-51H-1-NA flewn on 3rd Feb.1945. P51H was ready in WWII, but it was no need to put them in battle fields in a hurry.

P47M------761km/h@9760m

P-47 Performance Tests


F4U4 (served in 1945) ----728km/h
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/f4u-4.pdf

Ta152H----750-760km/h

Soren said that Ta152H was faster than any of late war Allied fighters...... Is the Ta152H faster than P51H and P47M?

2) max climb

Ta152H ----25m/s
spitfire 14----25m/s
spitfire 21--23m/s
p47m----20m/s
p51h-----25m/s
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51h-booklet-pg15.jpg
P-47 Performance Tests

Does the Ta152H climb faster than any allied fighter?

3) service seiling:

Ta152H: 48,550 feet
Focke-Wulf Ta 152
Spitfire 21: 42,800 ft (44500feet)
P47m: about 42000 ft somehow managed to reach 47000ft
F4U-3:772km/h@40000feet faster than Ta152H, due to the absence of Japanese high fighters, f4u3 cancelled, only 3 made.

P47m and spitfire outmaneuver Ta152H @ high altitude, note that spitfire14 especially spitfire21 outroll Ta152H.

Supermarine Spitfire - Great Britain

This link said spitfire14's ceiling is 44500 feet. Fighter can fly higher than "norminal service ceiling" as long as they can get enought time, and the climbe rate of allied fighter such as p47m/n and spitfire14/21 is as good as (if not better than) Ta152H.

In 1935, US exported a lot of advanced air-cool piston engines to 3rd Reich.It's United States introduced air-cool piston enginee to germany. German air-cool power never exceeded US.

Late allied piston beasts: Spiteful and Seafang were the fastest piston fighters, one of them even reached 795 km/h!

German piston power is smaller than allied beasts: R2800, saber, and griffon. In 1945, birtish piston power is almost 4000HP!
The Hawker Tempest Page

The smaller power of piston is german tradition,lol, so was WWI.

 

[Soren]

You're just beyond ridiculous glen, you don't know anything about which you talk and you keep fabricating stuff in your head. Let me ask how old are you glen ?

Anyway for your information the P-51H Spitfire Mk.21 didn't see service in WW2, something which you unsurprisingly didn't know.

Furthermore the P-47 is a large and heavy fighter glen, it wasn't very maneuverable, and so it always relied on its speed at high alt and its high acceleration in a dives to fight the enemy. The P-47 was dead meat in a dogfight against any of the LW's dedicated fighters.

And as to why the Ta-152H was unrivalled well let me sum it up for you:

Top speed: 760 + km/h (473 + mph) Thats faster than any Allied fighter
Service ceiling: 15.1 km (49,540 ft) Thats way higher than any Allied fighter
Climb rate: ~ 26 m/s (5,100 ft/min) That's faster than any Allied fighter (Except a + 25 lbs/sq.in. boosted Spit IX)
Time to climb 10km: 10.1 min (10.1min to 32,808 ft) Thats faster than the Spit Mk.21

And on top of this the Ta-152H featured better maneuverability than ANY of the late war Allied fighters, being capable of outturning the Spitfire Mk.XIV at all altitudes. The reason behind this excellent agility (Esp. in the horizontal) was the wing, being the most efficient wing put on a fighter during WW2, featuring a very high lift airfoil design whilst AR was very high, increasing lift even further whilst reducing drag, giving the wing an extremely high L/D ratio. And the L/D ratio is one of the most crucial factors to high turn performance. Hence the Ta-152H had no problem outturning any of the fighters you mentioned.