Germany goes with 6x15in Scharnhorst/Gneisenau development instead of B&T?

[SaparotRob]

You guys know I wasn't serious about beefier seaplanes, right? It was just a lame response to post #25. I'd like to know more about DKM Bussard myself. I take it that ship was named for the scientist who came up with the concept of the Bussard ramjet?

 

[TheMadPenguin]

B&T suffered from Hitler's impatience and megalomania, same as the whole Reich.
How many U-Boats could have been built instead of S&G and B&T?
How many PzKvw IV could have been built instead of V's & VI's?
And putting 15" guns on S&G is silly: their design purpose is first as a convoy raider, second as a surface unit beating the Empire into submission, and there are few tankers/freighters that sink faster to 15" fire than they do to 11" fire.

 

[Glider]

A personal view is that if the Germans had abandoned the B + T and instead had continued with the Scharnhorst design, one priceless advantage would have been the availability of another capital ships about 18 - 24 months earlier than the B + T. At a strategic level this would have given the RN a serious problem as only the Hood could really match them one to one, and that wasn't a sure thing by any means.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

A personal view is that if the Germans had abandoned the B + T and instead had continued with the Scharnhorst design, one priceless advantage would have been the availability of another capital ships about 18 - 24 months earlier than the B + T. At a strategic level this would have given the RN a serious problem as only the Hood could really match them one to one, and that wasn't a sure thing by any means.

1 on 1: Sharnhorst vs Rodney? My money is on Rodney!
1 on 1: Gneisenau vs Nelson? My money is on Nelson!
Either of them (or follow-on class members) vs any KGV class battleship? My money is on the heavier ship with the heavier guns.

Either I have seriously misunderstood you, or I seriously disagree!

 

[Glider]

1 on 1: Sharnhorst vs Rodney? My money is on Rodney!
1 on 1: Gneisenau vs Nelson? My money is on Nelson!
Either of them (or follow-on class members) vs any KGV class battleship? My money is on the heavier ship with the heavier guns.

Either I have seriously misunderstood you, or I seriously disagree!

My thinking is that the Scharnhorst wouldn't go anywhere near a Rodney, Nelson or even the Warspite or R class as she cannot afford to take any damage. This gives her the freedom to attack when and where she likes.
The only RN vessels that can catch her are the Repulse, Renown and Hood and a Scharnhorst has a number of advantages over the first two and is probably equal to the Hood. Being 18 - 24 months ahead of the B + T commissioning dates the KGV's are going to be too late for the first couple of years of the war.

 

[The Basket]

Scharnhorst will be able to engage and disengage from Nelson at will.

So by 1940s a lot of the British big gun battleships are now very limited in their roles they can play.

Scharnhorst as a commerce raider is a bit daft. A light cruiser can do that.

Warspite is divine so thousands of Scharnhorsts are cannon fodder.

Another issue is fuel. A millions Bismarcks and not a drop of fuel oil. Ah well.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

Scharnhorst will be able to engage and disengage from Nelson at will.

In theory. Theory doesn't fare well in contact with reality. Weather and sea state, proximity to shore, fuel stores all play havoc with theory.

So by 1940s a lot of the British big gun battleships are now very limited in their roles they can play.

Guarding convoys is paramount; QE and R class dreadnaughts are adequate to protect convoys from surface raiders.

Scharnhorst as a commerce raider is a bit daft. A light cruiser can do that.

Commerce Raiding was a principal task for S&G, when they weren't holed up in port repairing bomb damage.

 

[The Basket]

Scharnhorst is 7 knots faster than Nelson. That's light speed in comparison. No way that's going to be made unless they meet in fog of night.

At Scharnhorst demise in very rough weather she was making 31 knots.

Nelson is simply too slow.

Nelson can protect but cannot attack.

Or keep up with any other ship in the navy. Carriers? Er no. Chasing Bismarck. Nope. The point of battleships wasn't to protect convoys!

Nelson can commerce raid. Doesn't make it a good idea.

Atlantis had a crew of 350, Scharnhorst had a crew of 1,700 so that's a lot of fuel and food for no gain.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

My question, as an member of this aviation forum, what's the aircraft connection?

Or can we just start posting about anything that's painted grey, olive, khaki, or camo? I'll go next, who had the best TP in WW2? GERMAN ARMY ISSUE TOILET PAPER | Spandau Militaria Shop

Or.... we could post topics unrelated to aviation in its proper place WW2 General

You do realize we have a NON AVIATION section, right? As well as an off-topic section...

If you don't like the non-aviation topics, don't view them. Simple, right?

Granted this thread was started in the wrong section, but point stands.

 

[Admiral Beez]

You do realize we have a NON AVIATION section, right? As well as an off-topic section...

Yes, and that was my point, plus we had a little fun. No harm, imo.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes, and that was my point, plus we had a little fun. No harm, imo.

So aviation enthusiasts can't have interests other than aircraft? What is the harm in like minded people discussing other things as well?

 

[Admiral Beez]

My thinking is that the Scharnhorst wouldn't go anywhere near a Rodney, Nelson or even the Warspite or R class as she cannot afford to take any damage.

The very nature of the battlecruiser is to use your speed advantage to escape anything larger than itself. But then again, your last sentence applies to the entire German surface fleet, do not risk taking damage, so flee at every opportunity. Had Scharnhorst and Gneiseneau been upgunned in time for summer 1941, we could have seen Tirpitz, Bismarck, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, along one of the Deutschland class and Prinz Eugen sail together into the Atlantic. Now that would be a real nightmare to the RN, since they only have three KGV class and (without hindsight) Hood that have the speed and protection to fight such a force.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

Since all this talk is about stuff occurring in the North Atlantic, this thread belongs in "Off Tropic", right?

Alright, is anybody going to up-pun me on this?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Since all this talk is about stuff occurring in the North Atlantic, this thread belongs in "Off Tropic", right?

Alright, is anybody going to up-pun me on this?

 

[The Basket]

A British ship that gets damaged sails home.

A German ship that gets damaged gets set upon by every RN with a gun.

Commerce raiding is not Jutland 2 but it's honest naval stuff. Get a prize and sail away like old school buccaneers.

Not sure if s Panzerschiffe could sail with the big boys. Not fast enough.

 

[pbehn]

The very nature of the battlecruiser is to use your speed advantage to escape anything larger than itself. But then again, your last sentence applies to the entire German surface fleet, do not risk taking damage, so flee at every opportunity. Had Scharnhorst and Gneiseneau been upgunned in time for summer 1941, we could have seen Tirpitz, Bismarck, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, along one of the Deutschland class and Prinz Eugen sail together into the Atlantic. Now that would be a real nightmare to the RN, since they only have three KGV class and (without hindsight) Hood that have the speed and protection to fight such a force.

It would be a fantastically strong force but it could lose Germany almost its whole navy in a single action.

 

[The Basket]

Since all this talk is about stuff occurring in the North Atlantic, this thread belongs in "Off Tropic", right?

Alright, is anybody going to up-pun me on this?

You went there. I am honoured to have served with you

 

[TheMadPenguin]

It would be a fantastically strong force but it could lose Germany almost its whole navy in a single action.

If carefully planned, it could be made to occur in a U-Boat killing field.

 

[SaparotRob]

1 on 1: Sharnhorst vs Rodney? My money is on Rodney!
1 on 1: Gneisenau vs Nelson? My money is on Nelson!
Either of them (or follow-on class members) vs any KGV class battleship? My money is on the heavier ship with the heavier guns.

Either I have seriously misunderstood you, or I seriously disagree!

Seriously?

 

[pbehn]

If carefully planned, it could be made to occur in a U-Boat killing field.

If everything goes to plan. Bismarck was severely damaged by three hits buy shell fire and then crippled by two torpedo hits. Almost all the others were damaged by mines and torpedoes. The problem for such an ambush out in mid Atlantic is where do they withdraw for repairs or to refuel, the Channel dash happened because Brest and St Nazaire were getting unsafe. If all of that lot were damaged at the same time, where would they all go?